Platform Sutra – Talk 2
March 20, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Summary
Katagiri Roshi begins commenting on Chapter 2 of the Platform Sutra, “Prajna,” or “Wisdom.” This talk includes the meaning of the term maha prajnaparamita, and three aspects of prajna.
Transcript
Listen to this talk on mnzencenter.org
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: … Page 89. Chapter 2: “Prajna”.
The following day, at the invitation of Magistrate Wei, the Master took his seat and said to the great assembly, “All of you purify your minds and think about Maha Prajna Paramita.”
(From The Sixth Patriarch’s Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra, published and translated by the Buddhist Text Translation Society.)
Look at page 40 in the sutra:
The Great Master said to the assembly, “Good Knowing Advisors, the self-nature of Bodhi is originally clear and pure. Simply use that mind, and you will straightaway accomplish Buddhahood. Good Knowing Advisors, listen while I tell you about the actions and intentions by which Hui Neng obtained the Dharma.”
I think here [where] it says, “Good Knowing Advisors, the self-nature of Bodhi is originally clear and pure. Simply use that mind, and you will straightaway accomplish the buddha way,” that teaching is connected with this first paragraph of the sutra in Chapter 2, “Prajna”.
“The Master took his seat and said to the great assembly, ‘All of you purify your minds…’”: “Purify your minds” means own-being, [which] means self-nature. Self-nature is clear and pure originally. That’s why you have to use this mind directly, straightforwardly, “straightaway,” without inserting any defilement, and then accomplish buddhahood. That is his teaching: purify your mind, and think about maha prajna. You have to think about that wisdom, prajnaparamita. That is what it says here.
3:26
I think prajna can be considered in terms of three points.
One point is the essence of prajna, the essence of wisdom. The essence of wisdom is [that] the self nature is originally pure and clean. This is the essence of prajnaparamita.
And the function of prajnaparamita is… how can I say it. In Fukanzazengi, Dogen Zenji [says], “Learn the backward step that turns your light inwardly to illuminate yourself.” This is the function of the prajna.
[…] The essence of prajna is [that] the self nature is originally clean and pure, that’s why if wisdom works, [there is] nothing to bring in from outside. You have [it] already. So if you return to the original nature of existence, it simultaneously illuminates. If you come back, you illuminate. In other words, if you come back to original nature of existence, you can experience religious transformation at 360 degrees: exactly turn [around]. That is illuminate.
So no one helps you; you have to do it. If you practice sincerely, more or less everyone experiences this […] 180 degree or 360 degree turn-[around].
Well, there are many kinds of experience. Some experience this very slowly, very slowly. And some experience a little shock. Some experience nothing, but it’s penetrating, soaking through just like rain soaking through the ceiling, something like that. So they don’t realize, but it’s soaking through.
Some experience a big shock, you know? Like thunder, lightning, exactly. Zen teaching is always talking about such experience, fascinating experience. But not everyone [experiences this], okay?
So, many kinds of experience. But more or less, people can turn over their lives 180 degrees, if you really come back to original nature. That is how; this is [the] zazen we do. That is [the] “turn your light inwardly to illuminate yourself” that Dogen Zenji mentions in [Fukanzazengi]. Is that clear?
7:48
And the third point is essential principle. [The] essential principle of prajna is nondualism.
Nondualism is [that] there are two, but not two, they are one. But not one exactly – they are two. So you cannot say anything. They are two, but it’s not two, it’s one.
So if you explore anything thoroughly – human beings, human mind, or tables, floors – I think you cannot pin down anything at all. You cannot put that name on it. So very naturally if you touch A, A turns into B, simultaneously. Just like a quark: I mention [that] quarks are tiny, tiny beings – the tiny particles [of atoms]. [They have] five “flavors.” But one flavor is not the usual flavor: if you say “ugly,” it immediately turns into “beauty.” So you cannot say [it’s] “ugly,” but it’s ugly, so a scientist says, “it’s ugly.” But if you touch it, immediately it’s “beautiful.” It’s the front [and] simultaneously it’s the back, so you cannot say. They are two? No – it’s one. But it’s not one, it’s two.
This is undefiled state of existence. Or sometimes we say, “pure and clean.” And philosophically we say nondualism. Something like that.
Or, truth and the phenomenal world [are] not two, but not one. If you say one, it’s dualistic one. You’re mixed up.
For instance, I was pretty often asked by the Christian people, “Do you believe [in] God?” If I say, “Yes,” already that God is something considered in terms of [dualism]. And if I say “no,” it’s also dualistic understanding, so I accept God dualistically. Because if I say “God is one,” immediately I say “God is one” but that God is already in front of me! Or I say “God and believers,” or, “believers and object.” People can believe. It’s already dualistic. But God is something one with us, or [one with] all beings. So already it’s dualistic. No matter how long you discuss, [it’s endless]. But God is something more than whether you can believe or you don’t believe. Something more than that.
So you don’t say anything. But you have to say [something] about God. So, what is a belief? What do you mean by belief, believing?
So […] you have to be very careful to deal with, or to live in the nondualistic world. It really depends on your activities. It’s not ideas.
So, that is prajna. That’s why prajna is very profound wisdom to look at the structure of human beings, in terms of essence, and function, and also essential principle of wisdom. You have to see the human world very clearly. So it’s not an idea or discussion, it really depends on your activity: you have to do right now, right here. Because original nature is very pure, and [the] function is turning yourself inwardly to illuminate [yourself]. So you have to just come back. In other words, you become you, and you settle yourself – you are you-ing, and then you settle down right now. Then you illuminate. That wisdom illuminates.
In other words, if you want to be peaceful, you must be peaceful right now. How? Be peaceful. Peace is not outside. Peace is not [something] you can get now in your hand. So with your whole body and mind, demonstrate peace, right now, right here. And then, peace illuminates peace.
So that is called “turn yourself inwardly to illuminate.”
When you don’t come back to the peace, peace never illuminates you, because always you seek [for] the peace outside. So when you come back to peace, right now right here, peace illuminates you. That is “inwardly.”
So you have to see the human world like this, and then that is why peace illuminates us – in other words, why human beings emerge from the peace, when you sit down right in the middle of peace. Because it’s based on [the] teaching of nondualism: peace and you are not-two: one, but not one. Because you demonstrate. If you demonstrate with wholeheartedness, you are [not] you separate from wisdom, separate from peace. You are peace. So they are one. But not they are one, because you and peace are there.
Well, in the conceptual world, they are two. But in terms of reality, true reality, they are not two, they are one, exactly.
That is wisdom. And then all three: the essence and function and essential discipline (essential principle?), all three work together: that is called prajna, wisdom.
So wisdom is what? That is to be resolute, to do something. Resolute means, “Yes, I will.” Whoever you are, whatever you think, right now: yes, I will. That’s all you can do. And then, you can do. You can really take care of in the best way, as a buddha. That is prajna.
17:07
Page 90. (Returning to the beginning of Chapter 2.)
He then said, “Good Knowing Advisors, …
I’m sorry – the other [day] I [talked about] “Good Knowing Advisors”; here I think that means the audience, all the assembly. The assembly [is] called “good knowing advisors.” The other day I [said that] this is the meaning of the teacher. Sometimes it is used as a teacher, but here, I think [it means] the people of the assembly.
“… the wisdom of Bodhi and Prajna is originally possessed by worldly people themselves.
That means everyone is buddha-nature. Everyone is based on, everyone is amply present in original nature of the self, [which] is pure and clean, exactly, beyond human speculation. That is called buddha-nature. So that original nature, which is pure and clean, is not [the] conceptual world, it is actions, the world of activities. Because there is nothing to pin down. But [there is] something there.
“It is only because their minds are confused that they are unable to enlighten themselves and must rely on a great Good Knowing Advisor who can lead them to see their Buddha-nature.
The difference between the Buddha and ordinary people is that ordinary people are confused, it says here. Ordinary people’s mind are confused means one of the five hinderances is called doubt. Doubt means people doubt the Three Treasures: buddha, dharma, sangha. In other words, we don’t accept straightforwardly the truth that we are buddha, but still doubt. That doubt makes you confused, simultaneously.
For instance, a samurai asked the Zen teacher, “Do you believe there is hell in this world?”
[There is some discussion to remember the story.]
The Zen master says, “You are a coward!” Because the samurai doesn’t like hell, that’s why he doubts whether hell exists or not. That is, he doesn’t want to accept it.
Then immediately the samurai is mad at [the Zen teacher], because that statement really insults the samurai. So immediately he […] took out his sword and tried to kill him.
And then the Zen master said, “Oh, oh, wait a minute… that is hell.”
Hell exists. Do you understand this story?
If you doubt, doubt simultaneously [causes] confusion, bewilderment to exist. So that is confusion. That’s why nondualism is not a teaching which makes you blind, because nondualism takes you to the real nature of existence which is pure and clean. So you have to use your knowledge through and through; otherwise, you become blind. You have to use your knowledge through and through, and go deeply into human beings. And then, if you explore human beings thoroughly, then something compels you to turn over at one hundred eighty degrees. It’s not your business. When you reach the terminal station, [it’s] not your business. Something compels you to go somewhere; you cannot stay there. So immediately you turn over.
So very naturally, nondualism is not a teaching which makes you blind, but which makes your knowledge clearer and clearer. And then that is wisdom, and then wisdom causes your life to turn over at 180 degrees. So that [means], it’s not your business – [it’s] universal business. That’s why Dogen Zenji [says], “You throw away your body and mind to the Buddha’s home, and then you are drawn in by Buddha, and without using your effort, you participate in Buddha’s world.”
For instance, if you sit down here, whatever your mind is thinking, well, as long as you are sitting right in the middle of zazen, zazen takes you, always. Zazen takes you to zazen.
Zazen doesn’t take you somewhere. As long you’re sitting, [it’s] right now. Even [if] you are thinking. Your mind may always think of something else: Japan, or [something] fascinating. Whatever you think, your body and mind is exactly there. So, zazen takes you to zazen. So it’s not your business.
Two situations happen: if you do it, and then that is analyzed by you, so-called I do it. But on the other hand, you don’t do it! Zazen does it, if you sit down in zazen.
That is most important. If you really do it, something makes your life.
But people don’t pay attention to it. Always [the] intellectual sense gets stronger and stronger, and analyzing the situation, and always we say, “We do it.” So that’s why self comes first. That’s really egoistic. That attitude is really a narrow way of taking care of human beings, because you always see the human world in terms of the self-centeredness: “I do it,” “I want to do it,” always. Because you always ignore the other side, which is the bigger scale of the world. Is that clear?
So you should accept both. You do it; but you don’t do it. And then, your attitude becomes magnanimous, generous. Otherwise, you always become egoistic, and [you are] fighting, always bumping [into] each other. You’re hurting yourself and others.
So that is the difference between the Buddha and ordinary people. So, “It is only because their minds are confused that they are unable to enlighten themselves and must rely on a great Good Knowing Advisor who can lead them to see their Buddha-nature.”
28:13
You should know that the Buddha-nature of stupid and wise people is basically not different.
Basically not different. But the difference is that sometimes people are very selfish, not generous. That’s why confusion comes up.
It is only because confusion and enlightenment are different that some are stupid and some are wise.
Wise means to make your life generous – tolerant, magnanimous. That is a wise [person].
But if you are not wise, you really become short-tempered. Short-tempered? [He chuckles.] [Meaning] you are pretty [easy to] get mad at somebody.
I will now explain for you the Maha Prajna Paramita Dharma in order that each of you may become wise.
That’s why Buddha expresses his compassion over all sentient beings: to let you know what wisdom is. So [now this] is the explanation of wisdom.
Pay careful attention, and I will explain it to you.
Then from now, it starts to explain wisdom, maha prajna paramita.
“Good Knowing Advisors, worldly people recite ‘Prajna’ with their mouths all day long and yet do not recognize the Prajna of their self-nature.”
“Recite ‘prajna’ with their mouth”: I think in Buddhism you have to recite, or read, or practice, whatever you have to do, with the three categories of human actions: the mouth and words, and mind. Mind means mind and body. So mind, mouth, and… well, body and mind. You have to do this. So here it says that most people recite ‘prajna’ with the mouth. That is just talking about wisdom. If they know something, they always just talk, discuss, but they don’t practice. Here it says they don’t practice prajna with the mind: that mind means mind and body.
Here it says, “… and yet do not recognize the Prajna of their self-nature.” Self-nature and prajna are the same thing. Wisdom and self-nature, exactly the same. So they don’t see [the] true state of existence in terms of wisdom; always there is a separation. The world of wisdom is non-separation. But if you recite prajna with just words, you can [only] see your life just in terms of separations of the world. So that’s why here it says they “don’t recognize the prajna of their self-nature.”
“Just as talking about food will not make you full…
Just like talking about fire […] You say, “fire,” but no matter how long you talk about fire with your mouth, it doesn’t make sense for us.
“… so, too, if you only speak of emptiness you will not see your own nature in ten thousand ages.
It means no matter how long you do it, it doesn’t penetrate you. So,
“In the end you will not have obtained any benefit.
“Good Knowing Advisors, Maha Prajna Paramita is a Sanskrit word which means ‘great wisdom which has arrived at the other shore.’”
That is the explanation of the meaning of maha prajna paramita. As a whole, it means “great wisdom which has arrived at the other shore.”
I think you can read The Perfect Wisdom Sutra by Doctor Conze, [and] the commentary on the Diamond Sutra and Heart Sutra. In that book, I think you can find the explanation of prajna paramita in Sanskrit. He [talks about] it a little bit in that book. (Transcriber’s Note: The current edition of the book is titled Buddhist Wisdom: The Diamond Sutra and The Heart Sutra, by Edward Conze.)
Prajna is wisdom, we usually [say] “perfect wisdom.” Pra means perfect, completion. Jna is wisdom. So prajna, perfect wisdom.
Paramita: I don’t know… param means “gone beyond.” Ita means “she or he who has gone.” In other words, she or he who has arrived. In other words, you who are present right here. That’s it. You are a person who has arrived already. That is, we are buddha. “We are buddha” means you are a person who has gone.
Next, param means “gone beyond.” [That] means gone beyond the world of conceptualization. Gone beyond, already. That is the meaning of the truth that we are buddha.
So that is prajna. You have to see this truth with your deep knowledge; that is prajna paramita.
But here, in the Chinese, we say “great wisdom which has arrived at the other shore.” The other shore is nirvana; nirvana means the nondualistic world, and exactly perfect peace, right now. That is the other shore. So you are already arrived at the other shore; this is called great wisdom, perfect wisdom, which guides you to demonstrate your life as nirvana, peace and harmony.
So here it says [it] like this, okay? Next,
“It must be practiced in the mind, and not just recited in words.
Here mind means body and mind. Buddhism always emphasizes the oneness of the body and mind: not separated. That’s why here it says, “It must be practiced in the mind, and not just recited in words.” So mind means mind and body.
“When the mouth recites and the mind does not practice, it is like an illusion, a transformation, dew drops, or lightning.
So if you don’t do that – when the mouth recites and the mind doesn’t practice – it is like an illusion, because you never know what the fire is. You can know fire as a concept, but that fire doesn’t work in your everyday life. It’s something separate from you, so that’s why no matter how long you do [that], your life becomes illusions.
“However, when the mouth recites and the mind practices, then mind and mouth are in mutual accord.
Exactly body and mind and mouth all come together, and [are] working.
“One’s own original nature is Buddha; apart from the nature there is no other Buddha.”
So, the truth that we are buddha is not a teaching separate from us. You have to practice it with body and mind and word.
39:55
And next, page 91, the explanation:
“What is meant by Maha?
… and then next I think it explains the meaning of maha.
“Maha means ‘great.’ The capacity of the mind is vast and great like empty space, and has no boundaries.
No boundaries. Maha means boundless; vast.
“It is not square or round, great or small. Neither is it blue, yellow, red or white. It is not above or below, or long or short. It is without anger, without joy, without right, without wrong, without good, without evil, and it has no head or tail.
This is the meaning of vastness. Or eternity, we say. Or if you really touch the depths of existence, you can get faith. But faith is exactly like this: faith is not square or round, not great, not small. Or faith is not blue or yellow or red or white, not above nor below, […] And not anger; no delusions, no confusions, no misunderstandings. This is faith. If you really accept this original nature, your life becomes very stable. That is called faith.
So faith is what? Faith is very pure, and clean… limpid, like clear water, to the bottom. So manifest this. That is faith.
Dogen Zenji always [talks about] this: When you want to practice the buddha way, you should believe that there is no confusion, no delusions, no misunderstanding: you are already amply present in the dharma world.
You should believe this. Belief is not to make you “blind,” I always [say]. Buddhist belief is [that] you have to still go deep into the bottom of existence. Using your knowledge, and using your body …
[Tape change.]
… that is belief in Buddhism.
43:23
Next:
“All Buddha-lands are ultimately the same as empty space. The wonderful nature of worldly people is originally empty, and there is not a single dharma which can be obtained. The true emptiness of the self-nature is also like this.
So,
“All Buddha-lands are ultimately the same as empty space.
[…] “All Buddha-lands” means phenomena. Buddha-lands means all living beings, all sentient beings, all beings. [The four marks] of all beings are empty. Nothing to pin down: that is one empty of [four emptinesses]: emptiness of form.
“The wonderful nature of worldly people is originally empty, …
So that is [that] the mind of all living beings is also empty. That means the emptiness of original nature.
Emptiness [does not] mean in vain, okay? So, that is full function; the full function is called emptiness. The full function of your life. The full function of the rock, with all sentient beings. [The] full function of the mountain, working, interpenetrated with clouds and sky, human beings and trees, rains… Then, it is called emptiness. The full function of the mountain.
That is called emptiness. Everything has this nature. So original nature is emptiness. And next,
“… there is not a single dharma which can be obtained. The true emptiness of the self-nature is also like this.
So emptiness itself is emptiness. Emptiness is not something you can get. Emptiness is not something which exists in the world of conceptualization. Emptiness is exactly empty.
That is called emptiness of the emptiness.
46:48
“Good Knowing Advisors, do not listen to my explanation of emptiness and then become attached to emptiness. The most important thing is to avoid becoming attached to emptiness. If you sit still with an empty mind you will become attached to undifferentiated emptiness.”
Do you understand? [He chuckles.]
Someone: No.
Katagiri Roshi: It means, you do, always. Usually people believe sitting is just [to] sit still with empty mind. And then you believe this is [a] real understanding of emptiness. No, it’s [a delusion]. Because you attach to emptiness.
So real emptiness is nothing but total, full function. That’s it. When total full function appears under certain circumstances, [we] put the name on it called zazen, or gassho. Is that clear? But we don’t do [this]. First, we attach to the form, and then we mold our life into the form, and then we say, “I did zazen.” But actually, [that’s] reversed. First, your life must be fully functioning. And then that fully functioning appears from moment to moment, under certain circumstances, so-called zazen [or] gassho, and then we call it zazen. Do you see the little difference? [It’s] quite different.
That’s why here it says, “If you sit still with an empty mind you will become attached to undifferentiated emptiness.” So constantly you must be in emptiness – that is full function, constant full function.
49:35
Let me finish to the end of the explanation of maha, okay?
“Good Knowing Advisors, the emptiness of the universe is able to contain the forms and shapes of the ten thousand things: the sun, moon, and stars; the mountains, rivers, and the great earth; the fountains, springs, streams, torrents, grasses, trees, thickets, and forests; good and bad people, good and bad dharmas, the heavens and the hells, all the great seas, Sumeru and all mountains – all are contained within emptiness. The emptiness of the nature of worldly men is also like this.
So emptiness itself is also exactly emptiness.
“Good Knowing Advisors, the ability of one’s own nature to contain the ten thousand dharmas is what is meant by ‘great.’
So, all sentient beings [are] exactly emptiness. All sentient beings [are] demonstrating constantly emptiness. Including all without exception, exactly, animate or inanimate.
And then if you look at your life, your life is nothing but a speck of dust. If you see your life in terms of the whole universe, your life is just a speck of dust. But if you really understand deeply speck of dust, within that speck of dust called your life […] many, many, myriad beings exist. That’s why (the Lotus Sutra says) “Three Thousand Worlds in a Single Moment of Thought.” More than three thousand. That is, here it says, “the ability of one’s own nature to contain the ten thousand dharmas is what is meant by ‘great.’” That is called great; boundlessness. That is called buddha-nature.
And then if you decide [steadily], “Yes, I’ll accept it” – then that is called wisdom. Then next, you do it. That is called wisdom; buddha-nature, we can say. Or, generally speaking, you become generous, and tolerant, compassionate. This is called great.
This is called wisdom. Or, this is called emptiness.
The myriad dharmas are within the nature of all people. If you regard all people, the bad as well as the good, without grasping or rejecting, without producing a defiling attachment, your mind will be like empty space. Therefore it is said to be ‘great,’ ‘Maha.’”
Dogen Zenji [says], “You shouldn’t hate life and death; you shouldn’t love nirvana. You must be free from life and death, you must be free from nirvana.” But it doesn’t mean ignoring nirvana; it’s not ignoring life and death. So, “you must be free from life and death and nirvana” means you yourself must be generous, magnanimous, beyond the concept of life and death which you have thought, or beyond the concept of nirvana which you have thought. You must be generous and compassionate, tolerant. Take a deep breath. Don’t judge immediately. Don’t be … indulgent, lazy.
Well, in Soto Zen, we say, “Just sit down; that’s enough.” That is really lazy. [He laughs.] Or, that’s why the other school says, “Attain enlightenment! If you don’t, you are not a good student of Zen!” So there is another technique which is giving blows [on] your hip, just like a cow or horse, you know, to get enlightenment. On the other hand, Soto Zen says, “Sit down, that’s enough.” Both are not right understanding of the buddha way.
So, “just sit down”: within that “just sit down,” there is sincerity, sincere heart, and great effort, full devotion there. On the other hand, no attachment. Because if you do fully, there is no attachment. You can be free. Generous.
That is, “Therefore it is said to be ‘great.’” That is called maha. So first of all, you must be generous and magnanimous. That is your attitude. And then, [when] magnanimity or generosity as full functioning appears in a certain situation, it is called gassho, or bow.
Then you see the form of gassho. And then people attach to the form. […] Attachment is very strong in our life because our life is taken care of in terms of form seen by us first. And then [we] put our life in the form first, and then try to take care of it. This is one way; but it is not [an] appropriate way to see your life which is fully functioning.
So very naturally you fall into attachment, because we’re there in the world of conceptualization always: in language, and sense of value, created by human beings, human society. And always there is lots of form and regulations, and always we put ourselves into it, and then people judge. “How are you? Are you a good boy? Or are you not a good boy?” So always people are judged, evaluated, in terms of the form “frame.” So most people are really suffocated to death in such a situation. So they don’t respect completely human beings as buddhas.
That’s it. Do you have questions?
Before you come here, please read this and study a little bit. Otherwise, just coming here and listening is not good for you. So even though you don’t understand it, you should read on your own.
There is a commentary. I don’t read the commentary, so you should read the commentary.
Question: Where can we buy that edition?
[There is some advice from the audience.]
59:25
Question: So, Hojo-san? To get from doubt to faith, you’re saying you sit zazen? Is that how you do it? I missed the link between, getting from to doubt to faith.
Katagiri Roshi: What is your question? I don’t understand.
Same person: When you were talking about doubt as a hindrance. And then later on you were talking about faith.
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Same person: And it seemed like there is a progression there, from doubt to faith. Is that correct?
Katagiri Roshi: Progression of doubt and faith?
Same person: Mm-hmm. Or, how do you get from doubt to faith? If you start out doubting, how do you get faith?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, when you find yourself in the faith, and then it is called faith, even though you have doubt. So you have to demonstrate faith; and then, your life becomes faith, based on the faith.
If you see the doubt, and then the doubt takes your life to the doubt, always there is doubt. But the bottom of the doubt has no root, so very naturally the bottom of the doubt is emptiness. So naturally you’re confused, because you don’t know what to do in the realm of the doubt. That’s why even though you see the doubt, I don’t think you should always depend on your doubt. So you have to demonstrate right in the middle of doubt.
So a simple way is zazen, [as] buddhas and ancestors mention.
Generally speaking – in terms of general Buddhism – I think [there is] three point practice: mon, shi, shu. […] Mon means listening . And also [shi,] contemplation [of] what you have listened [to of] Buddha’s teaching. And shu is practice. Practice is meditation, zazen – dhyāna.
So listening to Buddha’s teaching, and contemplation – contemplation means very deep understanding, [it] means “nurturing wisdom.” Because already we are wisdom, so we have to nurture shu to grow. We have a buddha, so we have to nurture the buddha-nature, which means to let it grow. So that is contemplation. Listening to Buddha’s teaching, and contemplation, and shu means practice; that is zazen. We have to practice [the] three.
Same person: Thank you, Hojo-san.
1:03:12
Question: Hojo-san, you talked about paramita meaning crossing over, kind of a crossing over. And I wonder … is that everyday activity, when we have to do something? Because I can see two views: one is just that whatever you do, if you have a job you have to do, then just do it. Then that’s crossing over; it’s not a matter of if you do the job in order to cross over.
Katagiri Roshi: Cross over means already the explanation of nirvana in words. Cross over means already “cross over”: this shore, the other shore. So [it’s] dualistic. Real nirvana, “crossing over to the other shore,” doesn’t mean handle your life with the dualistic sense. That is the other shore. Because you have to show, demonstrate, the other shore day-to-day. [On a] moment-to-moment basis, you have to do it. Because we are already buddha means we are a person who has gone beyond. That’s it. So you have already arrived at the other shore. But if we explain, we say “the great wisdom which lets you be on the other shore,” something like that.
Is that what you mean? What is your question?
Same person: You were talking about going moment by moment, and then that is a sense of crossing, from moment to moment?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. That’s [right]. But it doesn’t mean that blindly you just do it. No. Okay? Because you cannot ignore the world of conceptualization, because we are there, always, in the world of conceptualization. In other words, society is what? Society is a form of beings fabricated by human language, cultures, you know? So already the form of society is conceptualization. We live there: word, thought. Evaluation, judgement. All are form.
You cannot ignore this, so that’s why you have to understand it. Understand the form of kindness: what kindness is. But you cannot understand kindness in terms of the world of conceptualization only. No, because still you don’t know what kindness is. So kindness should be tasted by your practice. [That] means you have to directly, straight away taste the kindness among the people, sharing your life with people. People give you kindness, sometimes. Then, you understand kindness.
In other words, you have to make your life alive, day to day, sharing with the people, sharing with kindness, compassion, generosity. Anyway, share. And then, your full function sometimes appears between you and all sentient beings. Then it is called compassion, or kindness, we say. And then you can get accord with all beings. And then it is called kindness. It really touches your heart.
But on the other hand, you have to understand the kindness in terms of the world of conceptualizations. Okay? So just do it is not always “just do it,” ignoring the other side, conceptualization. Because if you ignore the world of conceptualization, it means that you ignore life and death! If you ignore, the other is attached by you. Ignoring is already attachment. So already you are taking care of human life in dualism.
[For example, someone asks,] “Do you believe in God?” [You say,] “Yes.” Then you believe in God, but you don’t believe in something else. [So a] person who doesn’t believe is “bad”, [and] a person who believes is “good.” So people ask me, “Do you believe in God?” If I say “Yes”, [they say,] “You’re a good boy!” If I don’t: “You’re a bad boy.” You know? This is really dualistic. Dualistic means you already attach to only one and throw away the other. This is dualistic.
Unconsciously you handle [things] like this. So this is the dualistic world. But you have to see clearly what the dualistic way of thinking, way of life [is]. You have to see it. That is [why] Zen practice always says, “See the life and death,” [or] “It is a great matter of life and death.” So you have to see clearly what’s going on in the dualistic sense.