April 24, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi

List | Previous | Next | Series: Platform Sutra

Summary

Katagiri Roshi concludes this series on the Platform Sutra by discussing the relationship between karma and nirvana, or the phenomenal world and the truth, or the “ordinary” self and original self-nature. “Our fundamental self-nature is clear and pure” means there is no gap between them. We should continually deepen the experience of our lives, because karmic life is buddha.

Transcript

Listen to this talk on mnzencenter.org

0:00

Katagiri Roshi: Page 109:

The Bodhisattva-shila Sutra says, ‘Our fundamental self-nature is clear and pure.’ If we recognize our own mind and see the nature, we shall all perfect the Buddha Way. The Vimalakirti Nirdesha Sutra says, ‘Just then, suddenly regain your original mind.’”

(From The Sixth Patriarch’s Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra, published and translated by the Buddhist Text Translation Society.)

Before, in the previous paragraph they mentioned about sudden enlightenment. Let me read [it]:

“Good Knowing Advisors, unenlightened, the Buddha is a living being. At the time of a single enlightened thought, the living being is a Buddha. Therefore you should know that the ten thousand dharmas exist totally within your own mind. Why don’t you, from within your own mind, suddenly see the true suchness of your original nature?

Then, it quotes the statement from the Bodhisattva-shila Sutra, which means [unintelligible] Sutra, “Our fundamental self-nature is clear and pure.”

I think “our fundamental self-nature is clear and pure” means […] there is no gap, no partition between the [phenomenal world] and the truth, or [between] original self-nature and also the ordinary self. So no gap between subject and object. No gap, no partition. That’s why original nature is very clear and pure: nothing called partition or wall or gap; there is nothing.

So that’s why here it says, “‘Our fundamental self-nature is clear and pure.’ If we recognize our own mind and see the nature, we shall all perfect the Buddha way.” “The Buddha way”: that’s why the buddha way is to see no gap between the subject and object, and you and your object and also all living beings. There is no gap. Object means not only one object you can see, but you have to see all objects.

If you see the table, I think you have to see something clear and pure where not only the table but also many beings exist simultaneously. Because original nature is very clear and pure. So everything can exist in peace, in harmony, exchanging their position at super speed. [We don’t know] how: […] intellectually it’s impossible [for] two beings [to] exist simultaneously, occupying a moment, occupying a portion of space. It’s impossible, but strictly speaking they exist simultaneously in peace, in harmony at a moment, because [there is] no gap between. If you see even a small gap, that is dualistic. So we don’t understand why all sentient beings exist, and we don’t understand why we have to see not only the table but also all sentient beings. We don’t understand it.

For instance, if you practice like this in the sangha, I don’t think you can practice by yourself separated from others, I think you should practice with other people. You know pretty well, sitting here like this, you cannot sit by yourself. […] If you want to sit here, you have to sit with all of [the people], and also you have to sit [with the] floor, table, your clothes, the air… all things. Because all exist simultaneously. We don’t understand [it] intellectually, in the dualistic sense, but it is really true.

That’s why sitting is not only the sitting here: before you sit, already sitting begins. When you come here in the entrance, already it’s [that] sitting starts. But we don’t believe this! When you get into the entrance, it is already sitting: that’s why Dogen Zenji [says] how to behave in a zendo. Apparently, it is very rigid, because you have to always follow [or] obey form, and gassho, how to [come into the room]… So apparently it’s ridiculous, but it is really true. If you don’t practice like this, you don’t understand [that the] original nature of the mind is pure and clear. It’s not Dogen Zenji’s idea, it is really Buddha’s idea, Buddha’s enlightenment. That’s why you have to sit from the beginning. When you get up in the morning, this is already the opportunity when the zazen starts.

So that is no gap… I mean, pure and clean. If you recognize our own mind and see the nature, you shall all perfect the buddha way. This is the buddha way. Even though your head doesn’t accept [it], you should behave like this, you should act in that way. That is to achieve, to recognize, to suddenly all of a sudden to achieve, to perfect [the] buddha way. Buddha way means universal state of existence – whatever you say – which is pure and clean.

“The Vimalakirti Nirdesha Sutra says, ‘Just then, suddenly regain your original mind.’” Your original mind is buddha mind, which means magnanimity, magnanimous state of mind. Your mind becomes very magnanimous; your mind is extending into everything! Your mind extending today, right now, your zazen, but not only your zazen: the others’ zazen, Christians’ zazen, and the air’s zazen… air [is] also sitting [in] you. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense, why do you sit zazen? [Unintelligible] buddha-nature. Then your mind becomes magnanimous.

We chant sometimes the Jijuyu Zanmai. You read this one again and again, but if you read this, if you try to understand Jijuyu Zanmai in terms of [the] intellectual sense, that Jijuyu Zanmai is really far from us, we don’t understand it. But if you practice it, receive it, and if you practice like this – well, [it appears].

So when you sit down, not only you: table sits down, floor sits down, just as well as you sit. [The] air is sitting. So you have to sit with all sentient beings, we can say. And also, all sentient beings interact with you, helping. [Helping] what? To perfect, to achieve [the] buddha way.

That’s why it says here, “Vimalakirti Sutra says, ‘Just then, suddenly…’” – suddenly means beyond the term “suddenly.” [The term] “suddenly” still means [an] idea of the process of time; [this] suddenly means no gap between you and sitting, you and all sentient beings and sitting. All beings are sitting right now. “‘… suddenly regain your original mind.’” That’s why if you sit, your mind becomes magnanimous. That’s why Dogen Zenji [says] in the Record of Things Heard, “If you sit in zazen, you are getting better.” Yes it is.

So, your mind becomes very magnanimous, compassionate. And wisdom.

12:37

Next, page 111:

“Good Knowing Advisors, when I was with the High Master Jen, I was enlightened as soon as I heard his words, and suddenly saw the true suchness of my own original nature. That is why I am spreading this method of teaching which leads students of the Way to become enlightened suddenly to Bodhi as each contemplates his own mind and sees his own original nature.”

So, “When I was with the High Master Jen…” – [High Master Jen is] the Fifth Patriarch, who is the teacher of Sixth Patriarch – “… I was enlightened as soon as I heard his words, and suddenly…” So “his words” means “the original nature of the mind is pure and clean.” And “see into one’s own nature” – that’s why you have to see one’s own nature. So the mind doesn’t mean your mind, [it is] including the mind of the floor, mind of the air, mind of the trees, mind of the creek, mind of the birds, mind of the chirping of the birds. […] This is universal mind. That’s why “the original nature of the mind is pure and clean”: that mind is not outside, [it is] in you. So if you find that one, it is not beyond; whether you find [it] or not, it is already there. That is original nature of the mind, which is clear and pure. That’s why [there is] no gap between. That’s why if you see the trees, very naturally you can share your magnanimity with tree, with table. That’s why whatever you do, you can do [it] with all sentient beings. You can sit with the tree, you can sit with the birds.

So [those are] “his words”: “I was enlightened as soon as I heard his words, and suddenly saw the true suchness of my own original nature. That is why I am spreading this method of teaching which leads students of the Way to become enlightened suddenly to Bodhi as each contemplates his own mind and sees his own original nature.”

Here it says he uses [it] to become enlightened: “That is why I am spreading this method of teaching which leads students of the Way to become enlightened suddenly to Bodhi.” I think after practicing you cannot be enlightened, you cannot attain enlightenment, because you are already bodhi, or you are already living in the Buddha way, [the] universe. So if you behave as [a] universal creature, universal being, you are [the] universe.

If you are American and you practice Buddhism, [then] it is American Buddhism. But if you try to see the American Buddhism outside, you never know what American Buddhism [is]. No. You should trust in you as American, not Japanese. Why do you [complain]? That’s why I always [say] you should make history, Buddhist history, [individually]. That is [we are] Americans, American Buddhism. But we are always seeking for American Buddhism outside. […] You never know what American Buddhism [is]. If you want to know, if you want to build up American Buddhism, why don’t you do gassho, and bow to the Buddha? This is American Buddhism, because you are American. Who are you? If you always complain, you are complaining Americans. It’s ridiculous for me. You should trust in you as American more – much, much more than before.

So that is “suddenly”: “to become enlightened suddenly to Bodhi as each contemplates his own mind and sees his own original nature.”

19:18

Next page, 112:

“If you are unable to enlighten yourself, you must seek out a great Good Knowing Advisor, one who understands the Dharma of the Most Superior Vehicle and who will direct you to the right road.

“Such a Good Knowing Advisor possesses great karmic conditions, which is to say that he will transform you and guide you and lead you to see your nature. It is because of the Good Knowing Advisor that all wholesome Dharmas can arise. All the Buddhas of the three periods of time, and the twelve divisions of Sutra texts as well, exist within the nature of people, originally complete within them. If you are unable to enlighten yourself, you should seek out the instruction of a Good Knowing Advisor who will lead you to see your nature.”

“If you are unable to enlighten yourself, you must seek out a great Good Knowing Advisor, one who understands the Dharma of the Most Superior Vehicle and who will direct you to the right road.”

I think […] let me read the next paragraph, [page] 113:

“If you are one who enlightens himself, you need not seek a teacher outside. If you insist that it is necessary to seek a Good Knowing Advisor in the hope of obtaining liberation, you are mistaken. Why? Within your own mind there is self-enlightenment which is a Knowing Advisor.

“But if you give rise to deviant confusion, false thoughts, and perversions, although a Good Knowing Advisor external to you instructs you, he cannot save you.”

I think apparently, you understand this paragraph [as saying], “If you don’t attain enlightenment, I think you should seek for the teacher, a great good knowing advisor.” At that time you evaluate that you are not buddha, so you have to seek for the teacher who guides you to attain enlightenment. But this is a dualistic understanding. I don’t mean it says [this], but apparently [it says something] like that.

I think tathagatagarbha, we say “buddha-nature,” […] [garbha] in Sanskrit […] means kind of [seeds]. But seeds has two meanings. One is, seeds have their own capacity, great capacity to be buddha: to be flower, to be plant. On the other hand, the second is, seeds have a power to grow, the power to function, to be alive. Two meanings. (Transcriber’s Note: Katagiri Roshi says something like gotra instead of garbha. But gotra translates to something more like “lineage,” so I am guessing he simply meant garbha: literally, “womb.”)

In terms of capacity to be a plant, according to Buddha’s teaching I think it is emptiness, completely equal. That capacity is buddha-nature, exactly. Including whatever you think: you, plants, trees, air, tables… even dung. Beautiful things, not beautiful things; all things have complete capacity to be a plant, to be a creature, to be a being, exactly, beyond your speculation. That is called buddha-nature, we say. According to Buddhist philosophy it is called emptiness, because it is pure and clean: no gap between you and tree, you and Buddha, ordinary people and buddhas – no gap between, exactly clean and pure.

Secondly, it has great power to grow, to function, to [work] from moment to moment. It has [this]. So we should water [the] plant, we should give warmness from the sun to the plant – we should give our human effort to this, to the plant, to the seed. Then, it grows. But [even] if you put the seed carelessly, it has power to function. Even if you put it on the floor, it is functioning. It doesn’t lose the power to grow; [it is] always functioning. But if you put the seed on the floor, it doesn’t work. So we should put it in the proper place.

How? When you do gassho, you should put yourself in the gassho form. That is the appropriate place. And then it grows. But if you don’t… it seems [that] it grows, but it is not healthy, it is sick. Sick plants coming up. So in order to be free from sickness of the plants, we have to put ourselves in the form of gassho if you have to do [gassho]. That’s it. This is [the] appropriate place. Then it grows.

Well, baby has the capacity to walk, and also the power to walk. So when the time comes… [or] even though the time doesn’t come, the capacity [or] the power to walk doesn’t disappear. So, mother has to help. He or she can walk.

That is [what] we call buddha-nature. Or in Buddhism [we call it] tathagatagarbha.

Or maybe in Buddhist teaching I think [also of] the concept buddha and bodhisattva. Buddha and bodhisattva both are different, but both are the same. When you [work], you are bodhisattva and also you are buddha, simultaneously. But if you explain it they are different, because they are functioning in a little bit different way if you explain it. Right in the middle of [the] process of your action, activities, both [are] working together. But if you taste it, that process of practice or actions, you can see the two things, buddha and bodhisattva.

Bodhisattva is kind of [a] co-worker, who works, w-o-r-k, with the people, or who walks, w-a-l-k, hand-in-hand with the people, with all sentient beings, in the dualistic world, in the saha world. The saha world is “front field” – not the abstract world, not behind, exactly [the] front field. [The] bodhisattva [is] always working there. But in the front world or the saha world there are many things occurring, so even [for] the bodhisattva, it is difficult to stand up straight. That’s why he needs buddha behind, who supports, constantly. That is buddha: buddha is spiritual support, who doesn’t appear in the front, always behind. Behind doesn’t mean [like] front and behind, […] but it’s very difficult to say, that’s why I use “behind.” But behind means in the depth of being. Or inside, you can say – but I don’t know how I can say it, so [I say] behind. Buddha is always behind you as a spiritual supporter, encouraging you, for [the] bodhisattva. That is a buddha.

That’s why in the sutra, Buddha doesn’t appear in the front field, always behind. The bodhisattva [is] always working with people, helping and teaching, always. Both are in us simultaneously. Do you understand this one? This is very important. Otherwise, you cannot work. You cannot work, you cannot walk with all sentient beings in the saha world. No, you never know, you never do it. Even though you say you are a bodhisattva, even though you attain the being, you cannot do it.

So that is, buddha is capacity to grow. Everyone has this capacity. Secondly, you have power to grow. This is a bodhisattva. Always functioning there.

33:00

Then you read this one, [and] you a little bit understand. […] Next, “Such a Good Knowing Advisor possesses great karmic conditions…”

Karmic conditions originally is conditional elements, [unintelligible]. “Great karmic conditions,” it says here, that is great conditional elements, or great cause and conditions, whatever you say. But karmic conditions means cause and effects, cause and conditions, that is simultaneously buddha-nature. So buddha-nature comes from cause and conditions, cause and conditions comes from buddha-nature. [That] means phenomenon is identical with the truth.

So karmic life, karmic condition – everyone has karmic condition. Katagiri, this form, is karmic. And [this] table, this is karmic. But karmic is not something wrong, not something right. “Everyone has karmic” means the owl has its own karmic, it means the capacity to see everything at night. You cannot imitate it; that is his karmic life. Dogs have their own karmic life – skin, hair, shape, form – which is completely different from human beings; that is his karmic life. I think in the koan you can see this – why dog has karmic life, karmic consciousness. If dog is buddha-nature, why he has this.

So we have a karmic life. Everyone is different. Okay? Everyone is characterized by karmic life of their own. But it is not wrong, it is not right. That’s why sometimes we really respect a person who represents his own or her own karmic life; then we really respect [them] as [a] “saint.” I don’t think it is right. But I don’t think it is wrong. It’s fine. But Buddhism doesn’t say karmic life is wrong, karmic life is right. No. The point is we should constantly deepen karmic life, because karmic life is buddha.

And then we say, “Karmic life [is] buddha, so why don’t you accept karmic life?” No. If you say so, you stay on the chair of buddha. So you never have a chance to deepen the stage of the buddha. Buddha is not a stage, buddha is constantly great energies to encourage you to deepen, to taste your life. And then, you can create total, whole personality, from which you can really educate, nurture you and everyone. That is “Great Good Advisor.”

So, “Such a Good Knowing Advisor possesses great karmic conditions…” Okay? Do you understand karmic conditions? Good Knowing Advisor possesses great karmic conditions, “which is to say that he will transform you and guide you and lead you to see your nature.”

One of the great Zen teachers was asked by a student… something like this, but I don’t remember exactly. He asked him, how can I say, kind of like, “I have great capacity to be a master of calligraphy, […] and get respect from people,” something like that. And then Zen master says, “How stupid you are!” [He chuckles.] Because you respect karmic life. Do you understand? He doesn’t put him down, I don’t think. What he wants to say is to let him be free from sitting on the chair of how wonderful his karmic life is: “I have great capacity to be a master of calligraphy,” et cetera. “I am master of a [pool],” something like this. Yes it is great, because no one [imitates it]. So we should respect [it], but I don’t think we should be proud of ourselves, “I am great.” At that time, you know, the deepening of your life stops. You stop deepening your life, deepening the experience.

That’s why the more you become a master of something, the more you continue practicing. Do you understand? You can see people like this. The more they become a famous pianist or dancer, the more they’re always practicing, because there is no reason why they have to stay at a certain stage, and showing [that they are] proud of their life. No way; constantly deepening his or her experience of dancer, music, et cetera.

But spiritually, it is pretty hard to practice this, because it’s vast.

41:37

So, “It is because of the Good Knowing Advisor that all wholesome Dharmas can arise.” That’s why if you do it, very naturally whole dharmas appear, whole dharmas can arise. Whole dharma means whole personality can arise. […] Your consciousness never knows, but if you do it, naturally whole personality grows.

“All the Buddhas of the three periods of time, and the twelve divisions of Sutra texts as well, exist within the nature of people, originally complete within them.” All sutras, the twelve divisions of sutra texts, means Buddha’s teaching. Whatever kind of scriptures, all Buddhist teaching aways mentions that point.

“If you are unable to enlighten yourself, you should seek out the instruction of a Good Knowing Advisor who will lead you to see your nature.”

Page 113: “If you are one who enlightens himself, you need not seek a teacher outside.” That’s why you cannot seek for the teacher outside. Of course there is outside teacher there, but actually you have to behave as a teacher, as a buddha.

[Tape change.]

… [spiritual] support, if I say so, if I explain it. But actually you must be teacher first, otherwise there is no chance to give [a hand] to you.

For instance, Ōbaku Zen Master bows in the butsuden, the Buddha hall. Do you know that story? The monk asks, “Why do you bow? Because the Buddha says don’t expect anything from outside, from the Buddha.” Huang Po says, “I just bow like this,” and he demonstrated his bow.

That is what? It is not an idea. You have to show, you have to demonstrate. If you demonstrate it, you can taste who you are, where you are. So very naturally you taste it. But if you taste it, you immediately judge yourself in terms of a certain stage of tasting your experience. And then at that time you stop growing. Naturally you become critical to toward [yourself], [and] sometimes to others.

Huang Po [saying] “I just bow” means you have to continually deepen the experience of bowing. That’s it. “I bow now” – not complete. You should taste it, and deepen it. Deepen means you should keep it warm in your heart. So “all you have to do is deepening” means constantly bow, bow, constantly bow. Flow of activities, that is deepening the experience, instead of sitting in the chair of a certain stage of experience. No. If your life is not flowing, you never taste anything.

But regardless of whether you are conscious of it or not, your life is constantly flowing. That’s why if you do something, you can taste it, you can experience it. But people always stay on the certain stage of experience. That is to stop growing. Then you are critical toward [yourself], or you’re proud of yourself too much. And then you create isms and ideas.

That’s why it says here, “If you are one who enlightens himself, you need not seek a teacher outside.” It means, “If you insist that it is necessary to seek a Good Knowing Advisor in the hope of obtaining liberation, you are mistaken.”

So if you see the teacher in front of you, [how do] you have to see the teacher? [Do] you have to see the teacher in terms of the form, karmic life only? Most people always see the teacher from the karmic life only, that’s it. That’s why you always judge “he is good teacher,” “he is bad teacher.” You cannot ignore this karmic life, but you cannot stay on the karmic life. No. Even you: you cannot stay always on the chair of karmic life, no. Because if I criticize you – “you are bad guy” or “good guy” – you [aren’t satisfied]. Because you trust in you – something more than [the] critical, karmic life, good or bad, right and wrong. You trust in you like this. That’s why if I am critical toward you, you [aren’t satisfied]. Even if I am not critical to you, you [aren’t satisfied]. Who are you? You are something more than that.

If you feel pain from life, can you judge your life in terms of just pain? No. You still trust in you, something more than [the] pain you have experienced. So who you are? Are you a painful person? [No.] Are you stupid? No. Are you good? No.

“Why? Within your own mind there is self-enlightenment which is a Knowing Advisor. But if you give rise to deviant confusion, false thoughts, and perversions, although a Good Knowing Advisor external to you instructs you, he cannot save you.”

No, he cannot save you, or anyone.

Just like I told you before, maybe [there is a] person who wants run a business, but he doesn’t have money. If he doesn’t have money, why [doesn’t he] stop? But he cannot stop, because he wants to do it. But then he doesn’t have the money. So what should he do? So he asked a Zen Master, “What can I do?” [The Zen Master] said, “If you don’t have the money, give up, stop it.” But he said, “I cannot stop it! That’s why this is suffering.” [He laughs.] How can I help? No way to help.

51:35

Okay, one more. Page 114:

“If you give rise to genuine Prajna contemplation and illumination, in the space of an instant all false thoughts are extinguished. If you recognize your self-nature, in a single moment of enlightenment you will arrive at the stage of a Buddha.”

This is salvation, it’s exactly salvation. Salvation means peace, perfect peace. Perfect peace and harmony.

Where is the peace and harmony? Nowhere you expect. Nowhere means activities, actions. In actions; nowhere to poke your head into. All you have to do is to let your life flow. To let your life flow means to let the flower of life force bloom, constantly. And then, right in the middle of this flow of activities, there is salvation or peace. No other place.

But we are always thinking, even [of] practice, as a concept, idea. We fall into ideas, so-called practice. We never know the flow of practice, the flow of activity as a practice, we don’t know. [So] there is no chance to get salvation, to [get] peace, no. In any ideas, any concept, in the world of conceptualization – no peace, no salvation. You can build up beautiful idealistical philosophy, psychology, Buddhist philosophy – you can do it. But never salvation. No salvation there.

That’s why it says here, “If you give rise to genuine Prajna contemplation and illumination…” Illumination is the functioning of life, aliveness of life, that is illumination. “… in the space of an instant all false thoughts are extinguished.” Exactly if you do it, the ordinary person, karmic life, becomes exactly buddha, karmic life shows buddha-nature. We don’t believe this one, but that is salvation.

If you want to get revelation from the God in church, what do you do? You have to pray, you have to pray to God. It’s not the idea of pray, but to participate in the deep course of prayer. That’s it.

And then if you think it, you don’t understand salvation or revelation from the God, you never know. But if you do it, there is revelation or salvation there. That’s why Christian monks in a monastery constantly pray. And then if you visit there, you are really impressed by it: just practice, by them. You don’t know why.

“If you recognize your self-nature…”: that is your self-nature, okay? “… in a single moment of enlightenment you will arrive at the stage of a Buddha.” That is buddha, […] that is to accomplish or to perfect the Buddha way.

Okay. Do you have questions?

56:45

Question: I have a question about not “sticking” to karmic life. In your story, the person said, “[I have] great capacity for calligraphy and people respect that.” I have trouble understanding the negative response. Why say, “You are stupid?” Why not just say, “You have to keep flowing?” It seems like if you say “you are stupid,” it’s because you think that if you say something positive the person will stick, but if you say something negative people also stick. So why is the negative held up as a superior method?

Katagiri Roshi: It depends on the individual. Sometimes you can say, “Just flow, just keep going.” Sometimes you have to say, “Stupid!” It depends on the individual. I don’t have any particular pattern in that case to say “stupid” to the person, no. It’s not a pattern. Individually, […] according to the personality, circumstances, you have to teach.

Same person: It looks like a pattern.

Katagiri Roshi: No, it’s not a pattern. It is a case.

Same person: You said, “Even if I approve of you, even if I disapprove of you, that doesn’t satisfy you.” But yet…

Katagiri Roshi: Even though you don’t satisfy or you satisfy from that statement, that’s alright. That’s why it’s not a pattern. If you have a certain pattern, from the pattern you have to taste something, you have to attain enlightenment. But it’s not a pattern. It’s a case. It’s the event. But [the] event must be important, because you have to take care of the event with wholeheartedness. Because the event is always occurring [and] disappears. If you say patterns, we always depend on the patterns, and then try to use it. But if I use it, I think the pattern is not always a certain pattern, because the pattern is changed by the individual way. So there is no particular pattern. You have to teach, you have to demonstrate to yourself in terms of the universal sense, in the universal perspective, according to the personality, according to circumstances. This is [what] the Buddha and ancestors did. It’s not a pattern.

It’s pretty hard, because we want to have a pattern. For instance, people always ask me, “When I am in anger, how can I deal with the anger?” There is no particular pattern how to deal with anger. No. But we always try to have a pattern, because so-called anger is already a pattern for them, so that’s why they are stuck in the pattern. […] If you have a pattern of pain or anger, already you judge, evaluate [yourself] in terms of only the anger, that’s it. But the world is big. You cannot say “my life is completely encompassed by anger.” No. So, you are something more than anger. You cannot have any particular pattern.

So, right in the middle of anger, there is something you can do. In order to do this, how can you do it? It’s pretty hard by yourself, that’s why you need some guidance and help. That’s why sometimes [we say], “Keep going, just keep going. Go ahead, go ahead. Don’t stay with the anger for long. I don’t think you should throw away anger; no. But anyway, you should carry the anger, but keep going, keep going, keep going. Always help.” But sometimes, they are very grouchy; that’s why sometimes we have to say, “How stupid you are!” Sometimes you have to push from the back: “Go!” Something like that. In many ways. It’s a case.

Question: When I am very angry, it seems sometimes that the whole world is, well, you know, it just seems like it’s completely anger. And you said that’s not the case. So, I wonder what it means for you then, when you’re very angry, how you deal with that.

Katagiri Roshi: Well, that’s why if I say, “If I have anger, if I see the anger, immediately I see my life and I judge, evaluate my life completely encompassed by anger, nothing else, that’s why I become disappointed and despair.” But why do I despair? Because I see unconsciously something more than anger! That’s why I despair. If I don’t see anything, no need to despair. [If] the whole life becomes pain [or] anger completely, no need to despair. But I see something more than the anger, something more than [that]. My life is not only anger; something more. That’s why I try to do something, consciously or unconsciously. That makes me despair and disappointed. But if I am disappointed, completely lose the energy to live, because I don’t see anything else, that’s […] the whole world becomes occupied by anger. That’s deluded, perverted. That’s why you need some help. You can see something more than [that]. Not teaching; teaching is in you already. Because from that teaching, despair, disappointment comes up. So let’s see the world in the universal perspective. Your life, pain or anger, should be seen from many angles. You cannot judge your life in terms of just one angle, so-called pain, or anger, hatred, et cetera. If you stay with it, the whole world becomes getting worse and worse. That’s why Buddha always awakens you to see the world in the universal perspective.

Practically speaking, that is to constantly deepen your experience. Don’t stay with [it]. Experience it; don’t stay with the experience for long. Anyway, deepen it, deepen it, again and again, because life is unfathomable. The depth of life is unfathomable: no end, no beginning. That is Buddha’s world.

Question: When you say you do something, what do you mean “do something”?

Katagiri Roshi: Do deepening. Deepen your experience. Instead of staying with the experience, judging the world according to your experience. If you have an important idea, outlook on life and the world, you immediately see the world like this. That is […]

Question: How do you deepen your experience?

Katagiri Roshi: That’s why you have to keep going! Constantly keep going.

Question: But that sounds like avoiding your experience.

Katagiri Roshi: No, not avoiding. Because if you keep going, naturally you experience. This moment, you can experience, because you do it. […] Usually people are judged, critical [toward] people [or toward] themselves, by the stage or result of experience, and then they stop going. But […] life is going, that’s why all you have to do is to keep going. [That] means, if you keep going, very naturally you experience it, but don’t stay with it. Go, keep going, go, go. That’s why Prajnaparamita says, “Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha.” Gone, gone, beyond. Beyond. Gone beyond. That’s all we have to do. That is deepening your life, refining your life. What Uchiyama Roshi says, “Refining yourself.” That means constantly deepen, because this is unfathomable life.

Question: Is the Zen way of dealing with karmic life to renounce karmic life?

Katagiri Roshi: Renounce? Renounce means to keep away from it.

Question: Well, that was my next question.

Katagiri Roshi: Renounce means, if you accept the Buddha’s teaching in a dualistic sense, karmic life should be renounced, abandoned. At that time, you have to die, anyway. You have to make your body ash, you know, [he laughs,] and then go to nirvana. But this is not realistic. Idealistically, we want [this], but that is to see the world in terms of a certain idea, [as I said]. An ism: Buddhism. Buddhism is not an ism. Buddhism is not to see human life in terms of a certain angle, so-called Buddhism. No. If you think renunciation is important because if you see human life, the saha world, is really jammed with miserable pain, it says “so we should renounce” – that is already a certain idea.

I don’t mean you shouldn’t renounce, but we should be free from. But where? After killing your body, throwing away your body and attaining enlightenment, nirvana? [Is that it]? I don’t think so! [In] the other world, after death? No. Day to day, we have to do it.

How do you do it? This is the question. So where is the renunciation? Renunciation is salvation, in other words. You cannot always judge human life in terms intellectual understanding, okay? You have to understand enlightenment in terms of wisdom, but simultaneously you have to see salvation, peace, in day-to-day life.

In other words, space where you can take deep breath. Where is it? It’s not outside. It’s not inside. Where is it? Oneness from outside, inside. What is it? This [is your] form. When you do gassho, it is…

1:10:54 end of recording


This talk was transcribed by Kikan Michael Howard. Audio recordings of Katagiri Roshi are being used with permission of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center.

List | Previous | Next | Series: Platform Sutra