Platform Sutra – Talk 1
March 6, 1987 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
List | Previous | Next | Series: Platform Sutra
Summary
Katagiri Roshi introduces a series of seven talks on the Platform Sutra, the recorded teaching of Hui Neng, the Sixth Ancestor in China. This talk comments on Chapter 1, “Action and Intention,” which includes the famous “poetry contest.” He discusses the controversy of whether the point of Zen is really “to see into one’s own nature.”
Transcript
Listen to this talk on mnzencenter.org
0:00
Once a customer bought firewood and ordered it delivered to his shop. When the delivery had been made, and Hui Neng had received the money, he went outside the gate, where he noticed a customer reciting a Sutra. Upon once hearing the words of this Sutra: “One should produce that thought which is nowhere supported.” Hui Neng’s mind immediately opened to enlightenment.
(From The Sixth Patriarch’s Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra, published and translated by the Buddhist Text Translation Society.)
(Transcriber’s Note: The recording begins in mid-sentence.)
Katagiri Roshi: … [the] mind which is clear and pure, originally. So one should produce the mind which is nowhere supported because the truth is not something [like] stagnant water, the truth is something moving and active.
So there is nothing to hold in your hand, there is nothing to support, “nowhere supported.” Nowhere attached; this [is the meaning of] “one should produce the mind which is nowhere supported.” And then Hui Neng attained enlightenment at that time.
Next,
Thereupon he asked the customer what Sutra he was reciting. The customer replied, “The Diamond Sutra.”
Then again he asked, “Where do you come from, and why do you recite this Sutra?”
The customer said, “I come from Tung Ch’an Monastery in Ch’i Chou, Huang Mei Province. There the Fifth Patriarch, the Great Master Hung Jen dwells, teaching over one thousand disciples. I went there to make obeisance and heard and received this Sutra. The Great Master constantly exhorts the Sangha and laity only to uphold The Diamond Sutra. Then, they may see their own nature and straightaway achieve Buddhahood.”
[…]
The Fifth Patriarch constantly emphasizes the spirit of Diamond Sutra, saying, “They may see their own nature and straightaway achieve Buddhahood.” This is very common; Zen Buddhism always [talks about this], [whether] in Japan [or] in China. “The real spirit of Zen is to see into one’s own nature and achieve Buddhahood straightforwardly” – that is a point Zen Buddhism always [says].
But I think this is a little bit questionable.
Dogen Zenji [talks about this]. I think you should read “Buddha Nature” [in] Shobogenzo. And also in Zen Master Dogen, Dogen Zenji [talks about] monks at the four stages of meditation (“Shi-zen Biku”); I think in this chapter he [talks] about the criticism toward that point [that Zen] usually [says] to see into one’s own nature and become straightaway Buddhahood. For instance, he [says] in that chapter:
The essence of Buddhadharma has never been to see into one’s own nature. Which of the seven past Buddhas or twenty-eight Indian patriarchs ever said that Buddhadharma consisted merely of seeing into one’s own nature? It is true that the sixth patriarch spoke about this question in the Platform Sutra, but as this a forged writing, it cannot be said to represent his true teachings, or to have the transmission of the dharma. We descendents of the Buddha shouldn’t rely on it.
(From Zen Master Dogen: An Introduction with Selected Writings, Chapter 10: “A Monk at the Fourth Stage of Meditation (Shi-zen Biku)”, by Yuho Yokoi with Daizen Victoria.)
… Something like that.
And in the “Sutra of the Mountains and Waters”, Dogen Zenji [says] also,
Transforming the environment, transforming the mind is something scorned by great sages; speaking of mind, speaking of nature …
Speaking of nature means speaking of one’s original nature…
… is something not approved by Buddhas and Zen adepts; seeing into the mind, seeing into one’s own nature is the livelihood of heretics; sticking to words and phrases is not the expression of liberation.
(From Shobogenzo: Zen Essays by Dogen, translated by Thomas Cleary, page 91.)
So Dogen Zenji strongly criticizes that pretty usual emphasis of Zen Buddhism in those days, [or] even now. Because if you emphasize [that] the main point of Zen Buddhism is seeing into one’s own nature by the zazen, at that time I think it is still very dualistic.
So by zazen and by Zen practice you have to […] to see [the] true nature of the self and then become Buddha – this is [a] pretty usual understanding of Zen practice and Buddhist practice. But at that time, in the basic state of existence, I think you cannot be free from agitations and hesitations, uneasiness of your mind always, because you try to get peace and harmony dualistically. [You think,] “I am not perfect, that’s why I need something.” So that is always something agitating you, and makes your life uneasy.
But Dogen Zenji always [says] your basic nature is exactly buddha. It is not [just] Dogen’s teaching, but the Nirvana Sutra and also the Diamond Sutra and Prajnaparamita [Sutra] [says this]. [The] Nirvana Sutra mentions constantly that we are buddha, all sentient beings are buddha, so we have to stand up in the buddha-nature, stand up at the place where all sentient beings are buddha from the beginning to end. That is [the] main point.
11:00
I think if you read the “Buddha Nature” [chapter] of Shobogenzo (“Busshō”), [it’s] a little bit difficult to understand, but you would taste what the buddha-nature is. So that is a most important chapter for you, to understand Dogen Zenji’s teaching, and also Buddha’s teaching, [that is,] in terms of general Buddhism.
So according to [Dogen in] “Buddha Nature,” there are two points. He [talks] about buddha-nature [according to Nirvana Sutra]; he quotes a sentence of Nirvana Sutra and comments on this. So there are two points he mentioned.
One point is: “All beings without exception are buddha.” This is one point. All beings, without exception at all, are buddha, [or] buddha-nature.
And second: “Buddha-nature is”… how can I say [unintelligible Japanese phrase]… “time and occasion, and cause and conditions.” [This is a] literal translation. “Buddha-nature is time and occasion, cause and conditions.”
(Transcriber’s Note: This may be a rendering of the initial lines in “Busshō,” which are noted in the Nishijima-Cross translation of Shobogenzo as being from Mahaparinirvana-sutra, Chapter 27. If so, this translation differs from that one.)
So two meanings. All beings, without exception, are buddha-nature. That means whatever you may be, whatever you think, whatever you don’t think, all beings are completely buddha. So [there is] nothing else to compare with; all are completely buddha. So there is nothing “wrong,” nothing “good” – it’s perfectly buddha.
So that is the truth Dogen Zenji constantly mentions. That is buddha-nature, we say.
If so, we immediately think buddha-nature is something like the very basic nature of existence from which […] all sentient beings [are made] alive. So we think immediately the buddha-nature is something absolute, or buddha-nature is something eternal – so, the very basic nature of existence. But that is not real buddha-nature! That’s why the second point is, “Buddha-nature is time and occasion, cause and conditions.”
So buddha-nature is always […] that which occurs according to time and occasion, and cause and conditions. That means, when you come here, this is your life. When you walk, this is your life, so-called walking on the street. Always there is cause and conditions. Cause and conditions means […] all forms you are confounded with, all opportunities [or chances] you face, day to day, from moment to moment. This is time and occasion, we say.
“When spring comes, flower blooms.” When you see the flower, this is time and occasion, and that form of flower has conditions and causes. So, [the] form of flowers consists of lots of time and occasion, and causes and conditions. So behind the tiny flower, [there] is a huge world. It is working together; then we can see the form of flowers with our naked eye. But behind this tiny flower we cannot see, because it’s huge.
So that’s why buddha-nature is time and occasion, cause and conditions. That means, nothing to hold. The second point means just functions, activities. So buddha-nature is what? Activities. Functions. Process. That’s it.
So, there is nothing to hold as fixed beings, fixed entities. Nothing. And then, […] [what] can you call this buddha-nature, which is called nothing but activities, process, and functioning in dynamism? [What] can you call this?
Finally, Dogen Zenji [says], that buddha-nature may be called no buddha-nature. Because no buddha-nature is a very close term to explain the true picture of buddha-nature. Because it is nothing to hold; that’s why no buddha-nature. And then from that no-buddha-nature, we can see buddha-nature or no-buddha-nature – the idea of buddha-nature or the idea of no-buddha-nature – which means the phenomenal world coming up.
So that is in the chapter “Buddha Nature,” [where] Dogen Zenji [talks] about Joshu’s koan, “Does a dog have buddha-nature or not.”
19:32
Let’s go [to] page 43:
(From The Sixth Patriarch’s Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra, published and translated by the Buddhist Text Translation Society.)
“The Great Master constantly exhorts the Sangha and laity only to uphold The Diamond Sutra. Then, they may see their own nature and straightaway achieve Buddhahood.”
Hui Neng heard this and desired to go and seek the Dharma, but he recalled that his mother had no support. From past lives there were karmic conditions which led another man to give Hui Neng a pound of silver, so that he could provide clothing and food for his aging mother. The man instructed him further to go to Huang Mei to call upon and bow to the Fifth Patriarch.
The next page:
After Hui Neng had made arrangements for his mother’s welfare, he took his leave. In less than thirty days he arrived at Huang Mei and made obeisance to the Fifth Patriarch, who asked him, “Where are you from and what do you seek?”
Hui Neng replied, “Your disciple is a commoner from Hsin Chou in Ling Nan and comes from afar to bow to the Master, seeking only to be a Buddha, and nothing else.”
The Patriarch said, “You are from Ling Nan and are therefore a barbarian, so how can you become a Buddha?”
Hui Neng said, “Although there are people from the north and people from the south, there is ultimately no north or south in the Buddha nature. The body of the barbarian and that of the High Master are not the same, but what distinction is there in the Buddha nature?”
The Fifth Patriarch wished to continue the conversation, but seeing his disciples gathering on all sides, he ordered his visitor to follow the group off to work. Hui Neng said, “Hui Neng informs the High Master that this disciple’s mind constantly produces wisdom and is not separate from the self nature. That, itself, is the field of blessing. It has not yet been decided what work the High Master will instruct me to do.”
The Fifth Patriarch said, “Barbarian, your faculties are too sharp. Do not speak further, but go to the back courtyard.” Hui Neng withdrew to the back courtyard where a cultivator ordered him to split firewood and thresh rice.
More than eight months had passed when the Patriarch one day suddenly saw Hui Neng and said, “I think these views of yours can be of use but fear that evil people may harm you. For that reason I have not spoken with you. Did you understand the situation?”
Hui Neng replied, “Your disciple knew the Master’s intention and has stayed out of the front hall, so that others might not notice him.”
[Tape skip.]
… [He] was too sharp, and the conversation between Hui Neng and his teacher, the Fifth Patriarch, was going pretty well, expressing his wisdom, and so he didn’t want to continue to have a conversation between the two in front of the assembly. That’s why he tried to keep [him] away.
Anyway, here is the conversation between Hui Neng and the Fifth Patriarch. I think you can see this conversation in the chapter “Buddha Nature” also.
And [then the Fifth Patriarch asked], “From where do you come?” And Hui Neng said he comes from Ling Nan in China. And the teacher [said], “If you come from Ling Nan, I think the people in Ling Nan don’t have buddha-nature. How can you become buddha-nature?” Because, I don’t know exactly, but people in Ling Nan were pretty poor, and commoners, not educated so much. So I think in this story Hui Neng was not an educated person; so he couldn’t read sutras, he couldn’t write, […] but on the other hand, in the Fifth Patriarch’s monastery, I think Shen Hsiu, who was the shuso, the head monk of the monastery, was a very educated and sharp person. So Shen Hsiu [who was] shuso and head monk, and Hui Neng, are very contrasting persons. Anyway, that’s why he [asked], “If you come from Ling Nan, they are barbarians, they don’t have buddha-nature. How can you become buddha-nature?”
But Dogen Zenji comments on this […] conversation in the chapter “Buddha Nature.” You should read this carefully; that’s an interesting commentary there. The point he really [makes] on this is [that] “the people in Ling Nan don’t have buddha-nature” means no-buddha-nature. It is not something wrong which the Fifth Patriarch mentions, [rather] it is nothing but expression of what real buddha-nature is. So that real nature of the truth, buddha-nature, is expressed as no-buddha-nature. Because it is nothing but function and activities.
It is activity produced by time and occasion, and cause and conditions, constantly. So if so, if it is true, there is nothing to say. No perception, no word particularly. So what term is appropriate to express the truth as it is? So we say, “No truth. No buddha-nature.” We can use a negative term. But that “no buddha-nature” is not negative, but a manifestation of function and process in dynamism. That is the meaning of “no buddha-nature.” So Dogen Zenji [talks] about that point.
So […] Hui Neng [says], “Although there are people from the north and people from the south, there is ultimately no north or south in buddha-nature.” That is, he denied the Fifth Patriarch’s statement in terms of the Nirvana Sutra. The Nirvana Sutra always [says] all beings are buddha-nature.
So, “The body of the barbarian and that of the high master are not the same, but what distinction is there in the buddha-nature?” But Dogen Zenji understands this conversation pretty deeply. That’s an interesting point too.
30:35
So next, page 47…
One day the Patriarch summoned his disciples together and said, “I have something to say to you: for people in the world, the matter of birth and death is a great one.
“All day long you seek fields of blessings only; you do not try to get out of the bitter sea of birth and death. If you are confused about your self-nature, how can blessings save you?”
Here it says, “‘I have something to say to you: for people in the world, the matter of birth and death is a great one.’” That is a main point we have to always pay attention to in monastic life: the matter of birth and death is [the] most important [thing]. So on the wooden gong, the han, [there are] several characters there that say, “Life and death is a great matter.”
And also he says, “All day long you seek fields of blessings only…” That means your original nature is already blessed, already gifted with buddha-nature, [the] field of blessing. Your nature is buddha-nature. So you should seek fields of blessings only: “… you do not try to get out of the bitter sea of birth and death.” Because if you try to get out of this bitter sea of birth and death, already you are standing [in a] dualistic place, so your basic nature and foundation is very shaky. If the foundation of your life is not stable, at that time, how can you realize the field of blessing? How can you take care of the phenomenal world, which seems to be confused? So that’s why he says, “If you are confused about your self-nature, how can blessings save you?”
I think, strictly speaking, your self-nature is never confused. So Dogen Zenji says in [unintelligible], “If you want to study the buddha way, you should believe that there is no confusion, no misunderstand, no delusions,” et cetera. Your life is always going in the path of the true nature, the path of dharma, Dogen Zenji [says]. And then, we can practice buddha-nature, we can practice the buddha way. But if the foundation is always found in the dualistic world, your life becomes very uneasy, so you never taste spiritual peace and harmony.
But usually the foundation is found in the dualistic way. Even in religion, we practice in that way.
So that’s why the Fifth Patriarch says, “If you are confused about your self-nature, [how can blessings save you]?” Self-nature is confused, but if you don’t manifest self-nature as [your] steadfast foundation, your self-nature is never manifested as steadfast foundation. So that’s why here it says, “If you are confused about your self-nature.” […] Actually, self-nature is never confused; but if you don’t manifest it as steadfast way of life, then, it’s confused.
36:03
So, next,
“Each of you go back and look into your own wisdom and use the Prajna-nature of your own original mind to compose a verse. Submit it to me so that I may look at it.
“If you understand the great meaning, the robe and Dharma will be passed on to you and you will become the sixth patriarch. Hurry off! Do not delay! Thinking and considering is of no use in this matter. When seeing your own nature it is necessary to see it at the very moment of speaking. One who does that perceives as does one who wields a sword in the height of battle.”
Next page,
The assembly received this order and withdrew, saying to one another, “We of the assembly do not need to clear our minds and use our intellect to compose a verse to submit to the High Master. What use would there be in this?”
“Shen Hsiu is our senior instructor and teaching transmitter…”
Shen Hsiu was the head monk at that time. That person was pretty smart and sharp, that’s why the other monks trusted him and considered him as the successor.
“… Certainly he should be the one to obtain it. It would be not only improper for us to compose a verse, but a waste of effort as well.”
Hearing this, everyone put his mind to rest, and said, “Henceforth, we will rely on Master Shen Hsiu. Why vex ourselves writing verses?”
[He laughs.] So the other monks, they don’t want to make a verse and submit it to the teacher, because here is the great head monk, regarded as the next successor – so even [if] the monks try to make a verse, it [would be] useless.
So next,
Shen Hsiu then thought, “The others are not submitting verses because I am their teaching transmitter. I must compose a verse and submit it to the High Master.
“If I do not submit a verse, how will the High Master know whether the views and understanding in my mind are deep or shallow?
“If my intention in submitting the verse is to seek the Dharma, that is good. But if it is to grasp the patriarchate, that is bad, for how would that be different from the mind of a common person coveting the holy position? But, if I do not submit a verse, in the end I will not obtain the Dharma. This is a terrible difficulty!”
This is Shen Hsiu’s very honest reflection upon himself. Very honest, thinking, “Should I write a poem and submit it to the teacher? For what?” The Fifth Patriarch [says] if you compose great things, you could be successor of his lineage as the Sixth Patriarch. If [Shen Hsiu] commanded respect from the other monks, already it was very clear for him to become the successor. So he started to reflect upon himself: “Why do you want to write a poem and submit it to him? Do you want to be the successor? Is this your purpose? Or, [is it] to seek for the dharma?”
[This is] just like the Vimalakirti Sutra. Shariputra went to see Vimalakirti, who was sick. His room was very small, and there were five hundred bodhisattvas already there, but no chair. Pretty small room, so Shariputra asked him, “How can we get into this small room, and no chair?” And then Vimalakirti said, “What do you want? Do you come here to seek for the dharma, or to get the chair?” Shariputra says, “Oh, yes, we try to get the dharma.” And then, five hundred monks and bodhisattvas can get into that room.
[…] Shen Hsiu’s reflection is just like this. Very honest and very nice reflection here. That’s why he says, “If my intention in submitting the verse is to seek the dharma, that is good. But if it is to grasp the patriarchate” – in other words, to grasp a certain position, or fame, et cetera – “it is not good, for how would that be different from the mind of a common person coveting the holy position?”
But on the other hand, if he doesn’t compose a poem, how does the Fifth Patriarch know whether Shen Hsiu is [an] appropriate person to become the Sixth Patriarch or not? So he has to do it. So that’s why here it says, “But, if I do not submit a verse, in the end I will not obtain the Dharma. This is a terrible difficulty!” This is a very difficult situation he honestly faces and reflects upon himself.
This is pretty nice. So, next,
In front of the Fifth Patriarch’s hall were three corridors. Their walls were to be frescoed by Court Artist Lu Chen with stories from the Lankavatara Sutra and with pictures portraying in detail the lives of the five patriarchs, so that the patriarchs might be venerated by future generations.
I think on the wall of the corridors, the artist painted the portrait of the Fifth Patriarch and also his lineage, in order to let the monks know what is lineage was and also [to] respect [it].
After composing his verse, Shen Hsiu made several attempts to submit it. But whenever he reached the front hall, his mind became agitated and distraught, and his entire body became covered with perspiration. He did not dare submit it, although in the course of four days he made thirteen attempts.
But he couldn’t do it. He was very agitated.
Then he thought, “This is not as good as writing it on the wall so that the High Master might see it suddenly. If he says it is good, I will come forward, bow, and say, ‘Hsiu did it.’ If it does not pass, then I have spent my years on this mountain in vain, receiving veneration from others. And as to further cultivation–what can I say?”
That night, in the third watch, holding a candle he secretly wrote the verse on the wall of the South corridor, to show what his mind had seen.
So finally he decided to write the poem on the wall of the corridor, instead of giving his poem directly to the Fifth Patriarch. Because thirteen times he tried but he couldn’t do it. So that’s why he decided in that way.
The verse is,
The body is a Bodhi tree,
The mind like a bright mirror stand.
Time and again brush it clean,
And let no dust alight.After writing this verse, Shen Hsiu returned to his room, and the others did not know what he had done.
Then he thought, “If the Fifth Patriarch sees the verse tomorrow and is pleased, it will mean that I have an affinity with the Dharma. If he says that it does not pass, it will mean that I am confused by heavy karmic obstacles from past lives, and that I am not fit to obtain the Dharma. It is difficult to fathom the sage’s intentions.”
In his room he thought it over and could not sit or sleep peacefully right through to the fifth watch.
So, anyway, he couldn’t sleep because he was very concerned about his poem written on the wall.
So his poem is pretty well-known by everyone as one of the Zen stories:
The body is a Bodhi tree,
The mind like a bright mirror stand.
Time and again brush it clean,
And let no dust alight.
And later, Hui Neng also wrote his poem. I think [it’s on] page [57]. His poem is,
Originally Bodhi has no tree,
The bright mirror has no stand.
Originally there is not a single thing:
Where can dust alight?
Sometimes people deal with the two poems separately, and evaluate which is right, which is wrong. But I don’t think [that] is the right understanding. Both poems work together in our practice. I think you cannot separate them.
So, according to Shen Hsiu, I think he stands always in the dualistic world, and looking at himself, and try to reach the buddha-nature. So from this point, “the body is a Bodhi tree”: we are buddha-nature, but we are not buddha-nature, so we have to realize, we have to see into our own nature. So “the body is a Bodhi tree, the mind like a bright mirror stand.” This is exactly the same as the teaching of nirvana. So, we are buddha. “Time and again brush it clean.” But we are living in the human world, so it’s easy for us to get “dusty,” that’s why we have to always brush it clean. “And let no dust alight.” This is a point of our practice.
So, constantly practice. This is one aspect of the practice: seeking for the truth, constantly. “From the beginning to end,” even [if] you attain enlightenment, even [if] you become buddha, constantly we have to seek.
And on the other hand, the other aspect of practice is to descend to the human world, to share your life with all sentient beings. [This is the spirit of Hui Neng’s poem]: “Originally Bodhi has no tree, the bright mirror has no stand.” Because our foundation is already buddha-nature. So, there is no particular thing to discuss, [or] to forget. So constantly we have to stand up there, and then we can deal with the human world. “Originally there is not a single thing: where can dust alight?” So, we have to descend to the human world and save all sentient beings.
So [we need] both. Both work together in our practice.
Okay. Do you have questions?
54:25
Question: So, Dogen considered this a forgery?
Katagiri Roshi: Uh, not only Dogen. I think the introduction, written by [unintelligible], who was one of Hui Neng’s disciples, [says that] originally the Platform Sutra [was] written by one of the Sixth Patriarch’s disciples, but he didn’t publish it. And then other monks, other disciples carried it always, and passages which [the] other disciples had [directly heard of] the Sixth Patriarch’s teaching were added to this original version. That’s why [it’s] mixed up.
That is the general understanding, in Japan, in China, about this. So it’s not exactly the Sixth Patriarch’s teaching. We are disappointed if we [hear] that, but still we use this Sixth Patriarch’s Platform Sutra as one of the Zen Buddhist textbooks.
So that’s why Dogen Zenji criticizes [it]… [Although] criticism is [not the right word]. Dogen Zenji tries to let us know what the real teaching of the Sixth Patriarch is, instead of putting it down.
So that’s why the most important point is always Zen. But “the key point of Zen practice is to see into one’s own nature and become buddha” – […] that is pretty dualistic. That is the point Dogen Zenji tries to [say] in the Shobogenzo.
Another question?
I think next, please read the [chapter] “Prajna.” It’s [chapter] two, page eighty-nine.
58:10
Question: Hojo-san? Could you please clarify again what’s meant by causes and conditions, time and occasion?
Katagiri Roshi: Time and occasion is… how can I say it. This is a very technical term we use. If you read “Ocean Seal Samadhi,” Dogen Zenji [talks] about time, and everything is produced by various dharma. Various dharma means conditioned origination, conditional factors, and also he [talks] about time. What are conditional factors? Conditional factors are nothing but time and occasion. And what is time and occasion? He says it’s just arising, only. So time is […] some kind of energies in action. That is arising only, he [says].
But it’s pretty difficult to know what time is through [the words] “arising only.” So that’s why temporarily we say, “It’s time.” But real time is arising only. So it is working.
This is temporarily called buddha-nature, we say. But if [we say] buddha-nature, immediately we have a preconception that buddha-nature is something eternal, or absolute, et cetera. That’s why Dogen Zenji says no buddha-nature is pretty close, [an] appropriate term to express that arising only regarded as function itself, activity itself.
That is time and occasion and cause and conditions.
But because everything is produced by conditional factors, [there is] no particular thing you can believe… Of course you can believe, but [no way] to get particular things. Even life, even this body and mind, is always changing, constantly.
But if so, is there nothing to see? Of course, there are lots of things we can see. This is a form of your five skandhas, form of your activities, and time and opportunities we create, we face every day. So, there is something. But if we see something, immediately we believe, “This is something real.” But it’s not something real [that] we can depend on constantly, because it is nothing but function, activities.
So constantly our foundation must be found there. And then, you can deal with what [the] phenomenal world [is].
1:02:08
Question: Hojo-san? If Shen Hsiu’s poem speaks to one aspect of our life reality, and Hui Neng’s poem speaks to another aspect, is real reality beyond both of them?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. And they work together.
1:02:46
Question: Hojo-san? When you get to the place where you’re not supported by anything – then you really are supported by all things. Is that right?
Katagiri Roshi: Supported. Well, what do you mean? One is, you said, everything is supported. On the other hand, everything is not supported? That’s what you mean?
Actually, no “supported.” Nothing to support.
So if you want to know something supported by something, maybe you are supported by nowhere to [be] supported. [He chuckles slightly.] There is a true factor. In other words, your life is supported by impermanence. That is the true picture of existence.
Impermanence means function, activities. So as long as you’re active, you can create form, opportunity, time. […] Even if you sleep, this is a form, this is an opportunity, because you are acting. Body and mind [are] acting constantly. That is called impermanence, we say.
So impermanence is buddha-nature; Dogen Zenji [says this]. Because impermanent is constantly changing. Changing doesn’t mean [everything is] in vain, no. There is something always to create.
Different person: You say, “if you are active.” Is there anything other than activity, though? Is it possible to not be active?
Katagiri Roshi: No, it’s impossible. Whatever you do, always there is [activity].
Same person: Even if you’re dead, would there be activity?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure! Even though you die, it’s active.
Same person: Even if there were a nuclear holocaust, there would be activity?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Wherever you may go. Our foundation is really active, dynamism.
Same person: So buddha-nature can’t be destroyed.
Katagiri Roshi: No.
1:05:55
Question: Hojo-san, if in the two poems, one isn’t closer to the truth than the other poem, why did the Fifth Patriarch make Hui Neng the Sixth Patriarch, rather than both of them? … Or neither of them, you know? [He chuckles.]
Katagiri Roshi: Because, as Dogen Zenji mentions, “no buddha-nature” is pretty close to pointing out what the truth is.
It’s not evaluating both of them, which is right, which is wrong. On the other hand, do you know Kassan and Jōzan in the chapter “Life and Death” (Shoji)? Dogen Zenji quotes two sentences: “If there is a buddha, you are not confused by life and death itself. If there is no buddha, life and death never be confused.” Something like that; I don’t remember exactly. […] And then they went to see the teacher, to evaluate which is right, which is wrong; which is close to the truth. Kassan [asks] the teacher, “Which of us is pretty close to the truth?” And then [the teacher] says, “Maybe next day, please come again.” He didn’t answer. And then the next day, Kassan [comes] again to see the teacher and ask the same question. And then [the teacher] says, “One who doesn’t ask is closer to the truth.” One who tried to know which is close is not close.
[That is what] “no buddha-nature” [means]. “No buddha-nature” is pretty close. [He chuckles slightly.] Pretty close to the buddha-nature. […]
So Hui Neng says, “Originally Bodhi has no tree, the bright mirror has no stand.” So [he] always [speaks] about what the foundation is. And then, “Originally there is not a single thing: where can dust alight?” So constantly his basic foundation is found in no buddha-nature, there.
I think you can read the book of No Mind, written by D.T. Suzuki. [He talks] about [this] story, in terms of this poem.