Principles of Practice, Talk 5: Direct Transmission
March 23, 1986 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
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Transcript
This transcript is in rough draft stage.
0:00
Katagiri Roshi: The topic today is the key point of jikige joto, in Japanese. It’s very difficult to translate it. Jiki-ge, J-I-K-I-G-E, joto, J-O-T-O. Jikige means “direct”; directness or direct. Joto: I think in this translation it says “realization.” “Realization” is fine… but, I don’t know how can I say.
Jo of joto is to receive, to ingest, or to assimilate, or to absorb. Literally, jo of joto is to receive, to accept. But this is something more than just to receive or to accept. So, to assimilate, to absorb, to ingest. That is the meaning of jo of joto. To is “it” – the ultimate identity. To of joto is “it,” or the ultimate identity. Do you understand? Ultimate identity means the ultimate itself. Exactly [the] ultimate itself. No separation between you and the ultimate. Ultimate identity of being. So, you are exactly the ultimate of being. So, that is “it.”
So, to receive, and, how can I say… So, as a whole, joto means to – it’s a little difficult – to assimilate or to receive and actualize it. Is that ok? To assimilate and to actualize it. You have to digest it, and then actualize it. That is joto.
So, “realization”… realization is almost fine. Realization means in a sense to make real, or to actualize. But joto means… not something you should accept from outside, and digest, and then actualize. This is not the meaning of joto. Because, this it doesn’t come from outside; it is in you. It is already with you. So, we are present in it. And then, you can do, you can actualize yourself, what you are.
So, this is the meaning of joto. That’s why jikige means direct. Direct joto: direct accepting and actualizing it. So, it is not something coming from outside, that’s why direct. Direct means no gap between.
Okay, anyway, let’s [look at] Gakudo Yojinshu number 10. The title is “The Direct Realization of the Way”. Here it says, it uses “the Way,” but literally it says “it.” It says “it” – the ultimate.
So, I think I told you so far, I have spoken about bodhicitta and also faith as the key point of the practice. And then next, you have to actualize it, you have to ingest the bodhicitta and faith, and actualize it. Actualize these two, in our everyday practice.
So, that’s why Dogen Zenji [says here]:
There are two ways to settle body and mind in oneness. One is to listen to the dharma under a great teacher. The other is to do zazen wholeheartedly.
So, “there are two ways to settle body and mind in oneness.” This is my translation. In this book it says there are two ways to realize enlightenment; that’s it. But originally Dogen Zenji says “there are two ways to settle the body and mind.” It’s very difficult to translate, but I think… well, “to settle body and mind in oneness.” [He chuckles.] In other words, if your body is here and listening to the Buddha’s teaching, so all you have to do is your body and mind must be settled, right here, right now. Becoming one with the Buddha’s teaching. That is called settling: to settle your body and mind in oneness.
In other words, you have to settle your body and mind in repose and bliss, right here, right now. For this, there are two ways. That is, listen to the Buddha’s teaching under the guidance of a great teacher. Second is to do zazen wholeheartedly. Wholeheartly is constantly… well, Dr. Abe says “negotiating the Way.” I don’t know [about] “negotiating the Way.” [He chuckles.] Well, anyway, in many ways you have to negotiate means you have to watch carefully and closely, very closely. Just like a friend, just like your body and mind, very closely you have to constantly watch, taking care of. This is “negotiating the Way.” So, I think wholeheartedly means that constantly you have to do zazen wholeheartedly, which means negotiating the zazen you are doing. Because we are standing up in the moment, which is very subtle, very subtle. Subtle means… in a sense, very crisis point. You are at the crisis point: whichever you go, you can go. Whatever you want to do, you can do it. So it’s very … crisis point, situation. Is that clear? Crisis situation? For instance, at the first very moment, the first thought, which you cannot realize it, is a very crisis situation. You can go this way or you can go that way – truth, or samsaric world. Very freely, you can do. So, that first, the very first moment or thought is completely free from any conceptual ideas. That is reality we live in. That’s why from this reality you can create your life. It depends on you. […] It depends on you to create samsaric world, by your discriminating mind.
Yesterday I mentioned, should I run a business? But I don’t have money? But I want to do. What should I do? So you arealways juggling: this way and that way, this way and that way. Finally, nothing to do. So this is really a picture of the human suffering we create. This is called samsara.
So finally what you have to do is, if you don’t have money, anyway, stop it. That’s very clear.
So you can stop it, but you can create samsara. So that is your situation that you live in constantly. So that is I mentioned, the very first beginning, the very first thought or moment.
It’s very difficult to say “moment,” but temporarily I say “first moment,” very first moment. But it is not something you can put a name on. It’s the very first, very beginning. So nothing there. But it’s working – something.
So that is the… wholeheartedly: wholeheartedly you have to do. Wholeheartedly, otherwise you cannot be there exactly.
So one is to listen to the dharma under a good teacher. The other is to do zazen wholeheartedly. And then Dogen Zenji mentions, listening to the dharma means to give full play to the discriminating mind. “Full play.” Dr. Abe uses “to disport yourself in samadhi.” If you do zazen, you disport yourself in samadhi.
So to listen to the dharma is to disport yourself in samadhi. So-called listening to Buddha’s teaching. Because discriminating mind is characterized by attachment. Just like a wood tick, you know? Wherever discriminating mind goes – a world of intellect or a world of sensation – any way, discriminating mind always attaches to [it], like a wood tick.
So you have to understand the characteristics of discriminating mind. On the other hand, discriminating mind doesn’t have a particular solid nature, so-called attachment. So if you don’t meddle with discriminating mind, discriminating mind is always working in every area of existence, freely. So when you concentrate on breathing, just breathe, concentrate on breathing. But discriminating mind allows you to watch, reflect upon yourself, what you are doing as a result. You are always watching the result. So this is really attachment, so-called attachment. Created by reflection.
So automatically we do it, okay? And then attach to it. So if you don’t do it, well, perfectly you use your whole energy and just plunge into samadhi itself – well there is no room for the discriminating mind to reflect upon what you are doing. Because you and your body and mind are exactly one with samadhi, or breathing itself.
So that’s why “listening to the dharma” means “to give full play to discriminating mind.” So if you have the attachment, very strong attachment to your ideas or your ism, your standpoint, very naturally you are critical to others, and you cannot actually open your heart, and you cannot accept, you cannot listen to dharma. Dharma means universe. Okay? Your body and mind is very small, so if you don’t open your heart, there is no space to allow the whole universe to [be] let in. But usually we don’t do it; always we have a discriminating mind of our own, and then we see it – we see ourselves and others, et cetera.
So very naturally you become critical. You become critical to others very naturally, that is simultaneously you are critical to yourself. So there is no way to be free from discriminating mind. So you are completely caught by discriminating mind.
So listening to Buddha’s teaching is to learn something, to allow your discriminating mind to be free, anyway free. To open your heart – this is listening to the Buddha’s teaching.
So through the great teacher, through the teacher you can listen to Buddha’s teaching, but we are always critical toward the teaching and also the teacher.
So if I say don’t be critical to the teacher, immediately, “Should I be blind? Should I accept the teacher exactly?” This is also critical. So completely beyond this, you have to throw yourself into the buddha-dharma, and listen to. Otherwise you never know what the freedom is. Why do you practice spiritual life? It’s ridiculous. If you are always critical toward something, toward life, toward teaching, that is not necessary. If you do this, I think it’s necessary for you to practice zazen and Buddha’s teaching and religions.
If you go to the Christianity, Christian people very simply tell you, “believe in God.” What do you mean?? Can you understand what God is? No one understands what God is. But everyone accept God. Do you have your own discriminating mind toward God? Oh, of course… but finally you don’t have any ideas of God, so you always open your heart right in front of God.
That’s why Christianity is very strong, powerful to human beings, anybody. Because simply they present the existence of God. You have to believe, whether you like or it not. Anyway, they just present God, right there.
But Buddhism doesn’t. [He laughs.] That’s why Buddhism is pretty good in a sense, but Buddhism is very dangerous, you know? Because it allows you to be very critical, intellectual. That’s not good for us. Very intellectual. [He laughs.]
So, Buddhism allows you to make your head big. And when you are young, you like Buddhism very much, because it’s very intellectual, scientific, psychological, and very humanistic, and you love it. But I don’t think it is the real spirit of Buddhism. You have to go beyond. Anyway, you have to go through this one. Otherwise, you don’t understand the real spirit of Buddhism.
So, that’s why we have to practice under the guidance of a person who lives here, and you need this kind of guidance through the real person. The first point, the second point I have mentioned, as a key point of practice. We have to understand those two, and next we have to actualize those two key points of our practice, under the guidance of a person who lives with you.
And then, we have to listen to Buddha’s teaching this. So that’s why Dogen Zenji says to listen to the dharma means to give full play to the discriminating mind. So no matter how long you discuss about what is the right teacher, what is the wrong teacher – forget it! It’s ridiculous to discuss about this. Instead of this, please do, please practice. According to these points I have mentioned. This is most important. Otherwise, no matter how long you are critical toward Buddha’s teaching, toward your teachers, et cetera, it doesn’t make sense for you as a Buddhist, if you really want to know what is the spiritual life. So including teacher and also student, has to practice constantly these key points of practice. Every day. And then you can know what the right teacher, true teacher is.
So, I mentioned sometimes, you have to continually seek for what the true teacher is. Forever, you have to research, you have to seek for it.
Don’t think that this person or that person is right teacher for you. Don’t think in that way. But temporarily, this teacher or that teacher is your teacher, according to the causes and conditions. So, no way to escape. So, temporarily, let’s practice. Let’s practice under this teacher or that teacher, […] you have met in your lifetime, by virtue of conditions and causes. So, this is a unique opportunity for you. No other way to go.
And then, what we have to practice. This is important. What you have to practice, instead of thinking or discussing what the right teacher is. It’s [secondary], anyway. Right teacher is, you have to show or practice Buddha’s teaching day by day. And teacher also, exactly teaching, practicing Buddha’s teaching, with you. And then, we will understand what the right teacher is.
Okay.
That’s why “to listen to the dharma means to give full play to the discriminating mind.” Zazen is to manage free practice and realization. Yesterday I [talked] about the practice. The practice is constantly you have to come back to the beginning, the very beginning of your existence. You come back to the very beginning of your birth. Come back to the very beginning of standing right now, right here. Very beginning. Not to come back to the result, which you can see. Standing. It’s not a result. You have to come back to real source of standing right now, right here. And then, this is real managing zazen. Okay?
What is this? When you come back to the real source, that is called “managing free practice and realization.” Because, when you come back, that source, this is pretty hard, pretty hard practice. So, it’s practice. Because, we are already creating our own life. And then, put them aside, and then we have to go back to that one, that source. That’s pretty hard practice. But when you go back to there, it’s not hard practice. Immediately you are supported.
Just like jumping into the ocean. Before you jump into the ocean, you have to think what the ocean is, what swimming is, what the fear is, what happens… I don’t know what happens in my body and mind. Anyway, maybe the moment when I jump into the ocean I could die. I don’t know. There is no guarantee. So, lots of stuff is coming up. That’s pretty hard practice. Anyway, training your body, your mind, understanding swimming, oceans, and the form of swimming, et cetera. But when you jump in: naturally your body, when you sink into the ocean, the moment when you jump, but simultaneously your body floats. So, very naturally, you are supported.
So, this is what is called “to learn the backward step which turns your light inwardly to illuminate yourself.” Fukanzazengi says this.
Or, plainly speaking, it is called reflection.
So, in a sense, reflection is considered as human suffering beyond human consciousness. In terms of hard practice – it’s really hard practice, because suffering is really a serious matter in life, proportion. Because you cannot get out from this.
But for this suffering, you can survive, anyway. You have to appreciate this suffering, because we are seeking for constantly something more than the conscious world or unconscious world. We are seeking for always. This is the suffering. So, that suffering comes into existence beyond your consciousness, the functioning of your consciousness. So, it is very serious in life.
But if you realize it – if you realize that suffering, real suffering coming from the first moment of your being exactly – then you can attain enlightenment.
So, suffering makes you sad and painful, but on the other hand, suffering makes you become big laughter. Relief. You can be relieved, exactly.
Well, you can experience this in your life. If you cry day by day, one moment, crying, complete crying, you know, makes you big laughter. Just like the bottom of a bucket broken and the water rushing away from this, all of a sudden. So, this is the real picture of human suffering.
And then next, Dogen Zenji [says],
Everyone is endowed with body and mind, though their actions inevitably vary, being either strong or weak, brave or cowardly. It is through the daily actions of our body and mind, however, that we directly become Buddha with our body and mind. This is known as realization of the Way.
Here it says “realization of the Way: joto. So, joto, to assimilate and actualize it, is to become Buddha with your body and mind directly. Not to become Buddha after doing something. Okay?
We always think, “By practice, then I will be Buddha. I am not good, that’s why I want to practice – and then after practice, I will be Buddha. I will be good boy.” This is dualistic. So, joto is directly, you have to become Buddha with whole body and mind, your body and mind. This is joto.
Well, without joto, assimilating and actualizing it, no one grows, no one is educated. That is real education of human being. Because everyone lives in that way. But people misuse that it, okay? Even though they are there. They are present in it, but they misuse, they always misunderstand and misuse. So very naturally, if you don’t teach that way, teach joto, assimilating and actualizing itself, it – you cannot educate anybody properly.
Of course, school educates many people. But what does school teach? I don’t think school teaches how to assimilate, how to realize it. No. Always something, you know, something floating on the surface of oceans – always we teach those. So, we completely forget it – where we always are present in it.
So we have to teach this. That’s why Zen Buddhism, anyway to teach that. Otherwise you cannot grow, you cannot educate yourself, you cannot teach, you cannot help anybody…
[Tape change.]
… through the daily actions of our body and mind, however, that we directly become the Buddha.
This is known as joto – assimilatingand actualizing it.
This is called transmit. Transmit the sublimity of human life to the next generation.
And next it says:
There is no need to change our existing body and mind, for the direct realization of the Way simply…
… means here Dogen Zenji tries to explain what direct means, what directness means.
Directness means to to allow to be realized by… the teacher. “Teacher” means the Buddha; by the Buddha. So the two… direct means to allow to be realized. Okay? By the teacher, by the Buddha… means you not try to realize. If you try to realize, you are already attaching to your own discriminating mind. That’s why you always look at yourself and look at the teachers, look at the teaching and look at the process of your practice. So very naturally lots of criticism coming up. But actually, direct means you have to realize where you are. If you put yourself properly in the proper place, you are allowed to be realized. In other words, to be realized is like jumping into the ocean. If you put your body and mind properly, in the proper place, so-called ocean, and properly you have to jump into it. And then, you can swim. So swim is not something you try to swim. Because you are allowed to be swimmed. By what? Something more than you, your effort. So ocean, technique, teacher, your emotions, something more than your emotions, and many things – you are exactly allowed to swim. That is direct.
So directness doesn’t mean you try to, you try to get something directly. Okay? In other words, you not try to understand, not try to know it. But instead of trying to know or try to understand, you put yourself properly in the proper place. That is first. And then, you are supported.
But every-way would be completely reversed. Everydayness you live would be completely reversed. Is that clear? You always try to know, you try to understand first. That means you come first. So you always comes first, that’s why you want to know object. This is very usual everyday life.
So at that time you cannot get anything directly from the lifeline of the grandeur of nature. No, you never get it. Even though you got the wilderness, you never get the life rhythm, the rhythm of life of the wilderness. Never. So if you really want to get something directly, you put your body and mind properly in the proper place. Then, you are exactly allowed to be realized. This is a most important key point, most important point of our practice.
It is not only in Buddhism. Particularly Christianity; Christianity always says, “Believe [in] God.” This is a very strong and powerful inspiration you can get: believe [in] God. In front of God, you have to see yourself, everything. That’s really powerful.
So, consciously or unconsciously, Western people always put themselves exactly in the kingdom of God. So it’s pretty powerful. And then, we are supported. So that’s why people always believe that religion is something accompanied by mysterious and [miraculous] experiences, if you do it, constantly you can do it. But this is also very important practice for us.
So, even Buddhism never ignores that point. But Buddhism doesn’t emphasize only that one. But on the other hand, Buddhism emphasizes many things. In order to manage that strong, powerful belief. Which allows you to be realized by something more than you, more than effort. Buddhism tries to see something more.
So, in Shoji [unknown], “Life and Death,” it is a very famous passage here. You know already:
“When you simply release and forget both your body and your mind, and throw yourself into the house of Buddha, and when functioning comes from the direction of the Buddha and you go in accord with it, then, with no strength needed and no thought expended, free from birth and death, you become Buddha. Then there can be no obstacle in any man’s mind.”
So, your mind, discriminating mind, is given full play. In where? So-called samadhi.
So, you have to simply release. If you really want to release and forget both your body and mind, so-called freedom, you have to throw yourself into the house of Buddha. That is [the] rhythm of life, of the grandeur of nature. Anyway, the huge universe. You have to open your heart. This is opening your heart. Throw, okay? Instead of shutting off yourself, always in the small house, so-called discriminating mind.
“And when functioning comes from the direction of the Buddha,” – if you open yourself and throw yourself into the rhythm of the grandeur of nature, very naturally, function comes not from you, [but] from the rhythm of the grandeur of nature.
So, very naturally you can learn something, even if you don’t want to learn. If you put yourself properly in the proper place, very naturally you can learn the spirit of the wilderness if you want – but even if you don’t want to learn anything, if you put yourself there, exactly you can learn something.
So, when that is, Dogen Zenji says, “when the functioning comes from the direction of the Buddha, and you go in accord with it” – you really become one with it – “then with no strength needed and no thought expended, free from birth and death,” free from discriminating mind, free from your thoughts, “you become Buddha.” “You become Buddha” means you are allowed to be exactly in peace and harmony.
That is what? It is really something surprising. It is really surprising – astonishment, big shock. Then from this, you can see the broader picture, the panorama picture of life. Through the wilderness, through the grandeur of nature. Including your life, including birds, pebbles, and the skies… the whole universe, you can learn. From where? All life of the whole universe. It’s simple. Surprise, astonishment. When you really touch the spirit of the grandeur of nature, it is just simple. By that simplicity, it is unfolded and [you learn] many things: philosophy, psychology, physics, religions, many worlds come up from that.
“To do this is neither to be bound by viewpoints, nor to create new ones. It is simply to realize the Way.”
Do you have a question?
53:34
Question: Hojo-san?
Katagiri Roshi: Hai.
Questioner: Is joto, the assimilating and actualizing, the same as [where] in the opening sutra [it] says, “Having it to see and listen to, remember and accept”? Is “accept” here the same as joto.
[…]
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Let’s [look at] the Japanese, okay? Ware ima ken mon shi juji suru koto e etari.
Ware means “we” or “I”.
Ima means “right now, right here.”
Ken mon: ken means “to see,” mon is “to listen.” It means using the six senses, all six senses. In other words, with whole body and mind. That is ken-mon, “to see and to listen.”
Shi juji suru: Juji means “to receive and maintain,” “receive and keep.” That is juji.
[…] So “to receive and keep.” Koto e etari means “I have received and kept dharma.”
So that means, yes, exactly – that’s why “ima” – now – “I have seen and received.” And “accepted” or “received and maintained,” “kept”, “the Dharma.” Which is difficult for a human being to meet.
So that is a direct. But intellectually we don’t see it. It’s very difficult to see.
Is that alright?
Questioner: Uh-huh. Also I was wondering if, from the point of view of the twelvefold chain of causation, what is the first thought?
Katagiri Roshi: Ignorance. The first thought – according to the twelve chains of causation, it is ignorance.
And then the world is coming up. Alright?
But ignorance, according to The Awakening of Faith, ignorance is the bottom of the alayavijnana, exactly the bottom of the alayavijnana. Which is very close to tathagatagarbha, so-called eternity.
So that is a real partition, between tathagatagarbha and alayavijnana. And then when something goes through this partition – something happens.
So that is ignorance, we say. We don’t know what. So ignorance comes into existence by causes and conditions, conditioned elements. That we can say. Because we cannot trace back to ignorance, from where it comes.
Question: [inaudible] That would be contact. This first thought. [Inaudible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Oh, contact. I am talking about according to twelve chained causation. The first thought is, according to it, I think, ignorance. And then how ignorance creates the human world – then you can say contact.
So at least five consciousnesses there. Consciousnesses exist. Whatever circumstances you may be, at least five consciousnesses exist there. Under all circumstances. Okay?
And then, ignorance creates lots of samsaric world.
1:00:50
Question: Roshi? Could you please explain again what you meant by saying that… [inaudible].
Katagiri Roshi: “Full play.”
Questioner: Full?
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. Give “full play”? Do you understand? [He chuckles.]
Questioner: Giving full play …. [inaudible].
Katagiri Roshi: [Sure.]
Is there anyone [else]… ?
Someone: [It’s] sort of like, the big horse pasture, is give … [inaudible].
You know, in beginner’s mind, the saying is… oh, “give the cows a big pasture.”
Someone: A horse pasture is for horses. [Laughter.]
Someone: But it’s the same thing isn’t it?
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Someone: It’s the same thing. It’s just leave it flow and observe. [inaudible]
Katagiri Roshi: [Yes.]
Is there anyone?
1:03:24
There are no questions?
Question: Hojo-san? Taking the backward step, it’s like saying, “please shut up”?
Katagiri Roshi: [Chuckles.] Uh-huh.
[Laughter.]
You don’t like it? [He chuckles.]
Well, even though you don’t like it, well, that is a final thing you can do. A unique, final thing you can do… after struggling for a long time. [He laughs.]
So that is a unique way to allow you to exist, fully.
No? Is there anyone to comment?
Someone: When you said that taking the backward step is reflection… ?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes, reflection.
Same person: Is there a difference between reflection and attention?
Katagiri Roshi: Attention. [He chuckles.] Maybe.
Reflection is something more than attention. Attention is just look at, but reflection is creating something by the attention. So very naturally, [critical thinking,] if you see something you can think, thinking comes up. Then next, judgment, evaluation, and affective preferences come up. Lots of stuff. This is reflection. But attention is just to pay attention, to see.
Same person: But which one is taking the backward step?
Katagiri Roshi: Of course, […] plainly speaking, I think reflection. So under all circumstances, in favorable condition and unfavorable condition, we always reflect ourselves. Even in a perfect situation, we reflect upon ourselves, we look at ourselves. Not only just to pay attention to myself, but also creating something. Do you understand?
I said dancing, or playing piano – right in the middle of playing piano or dancing, still we reflect upon ourselves: “How are you? How is [it going]?” You know? Sometimes you judge, “Oh, pretty good now.” Next moment you slip off, and, “Oh, I made a mistake,” something like that. We always reflect, in many ways. That is really minute vibration of the mind there. And then why do we create this one? We don’t know. But we want to know. This is reflection, constantly. We don’t know from where it comes, but we want to know what makes it possible for this minute vibration to be. So that is reflection. Really reflection. Pretty deep.
So very naturally we have to “learn the backward step,” that means we have to come back to that beginning, the very beginning. The beginning of standing, and chanting… the very beginning.
1:08:17
Question: Hojo-san? I thought first thoughts were first thoughts. I don’t understand how ignorance … arise naturally. Does ignorance arise naturally?
Katagiri Roshi: Naturally? I don’t know what naturally means.
Questioner: Well…
Katagiri Roshi: “Naturally” means maybe causes and conditioned elements, by conditioned elements, and then it comes up. But maybe we can say this is naturally.
But naturally means still there is some reason why it comes up. Nothing comes up at random without any reason. There is some reason. That’s why everything is produced according to the law of causation.
So even if a thought comes up, by virtue of the law of causation, it has some reason. But it’s very deep, that’s why we don’t know from where it comes.
“The first thought” means the very beginning, very beginning. Before you can put the name on it – so you don’t know it is the first thought or not. That’s what I’m talking about. By temporality I put the name on it: first thought.
Because we cannot know something more than the first thought. It’s very vast – eternity. What we can know is maybe the very beginning of samsara.
So that very beginning means the very first, the inception of the thought. That’s what I mean. But it is exactly the same as eternity.
Do you have some comment on this? Anyone?
Someone: [inaudible]
Katagiri Roshi: Thought? Sentence?
Same person: [inaudible]
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm. That’s why I say the very beginning. The very beginning of a sentence, whatever it is.
The very beginning of forming something, the very beginning of taking something in the possession of a form – that’s what I mean. The very beginning.
How can I say it? Do you have a comment on this, anyone?
Someone: Well Roshi, thought is involved with discriminative mind, though, isn’t it?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah.
Same person: … As soon as there’s thought, then there’s discrimination.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure.
Same person: [Inaudible.]
Katagiri Roshi: Mm-hmm.
Anyone?
Someone: First thought is like the precondition leading to thought. Without first thought there wouldn’t be any… [inaudible]
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. Mm-hmm.
You can be present, but… It can appear in the conscious level, but you can pass through […] this one. […] It is something more than the experience and discriminating thought. So you just pass through.
So the other day, [someone] asked me, “Do you experience that one?” [He laughs.] Do you remember?
The main point is that it is not important whether you can experience it or not, because anyone can experience [it]. The main point is how can you live to the full, without being caught by experience. That is our practice, the final goal every day. Under the guidance of a teacher – that’s why we need a real person there. Is that clear?
Usually we are always interested in the experience. So we are always checking everyone: “Have they ever had [that experience]?” Et cetera. And then if you say, “Yes! I know. I have [experienced it],” then the people really admire you. But life is not something like that. [He laughs.]
Life is not something you can “mold” into a certain form, so-called “experience.” No. Of course experience is a part of your life, but life as a whole is constantly moving – with the whole world, past, present, future. So we don’t know, we still don’t know what it is – but actually you have to deal with that life as a whole. That’s why experience is just a speck of dust. [He laughs.] I’m sorry – for us – but it is true.
So finally, […] experience is very important, but we cannot be caught by individual experience. So the point is, how do you live to the full – without being caught by individual experience, individual ideas, and isms, et cetera.
Is that okay? Is that okay, [name]-san? [He chuckles.] Do you have a question?
Question: Yes… My question [is about] how desire is connected with ignorance. [Inaudible] … comes from ignorance?
Katagiri Roshi: […] Yes, they come from ignorance. But desire is already… what would you say… an unfolded parachute, okay? Ignorance is still the folded parachute.
Desire is the unfolded parachute, and you are enjoying very much flying in the sky. [He laughs.] Okay? But no guarantee, you know? Can you continue to fly in the sky? No way. Many people enjoy individually their own parachute – but they are always bumping into each other, and making a hole in the parachute, and fighting, and crashing down on the ground, and crying, screaming… always. This is samsara. Do you understand? [He laughs.]
So desire is an unfolded parachute. Okay? That’s wonderful, anyway. That’s why we enjoy very much.
That’s a good idea, an unfolded parachute. [He laughs.] Or a balloon – if you ride on a balloon. A parachute is more fun than a balloon. You can feel many things: air, skies, and the people.
Uchiyama Roshi took the example of the helicopter. Individual life is just like a helicopter, you know: three propellers, and three poisonous desires. And flying in the sky, and bumping each other, you know, and hurting each other, crying, screaming, crashing on the ground. And fixing [the helicopter] again and fly again. [He laughs.] That’s what Uchiyama Roshi said. That’s an interesting world, don’t you think? That’s fun.
[He laughs] Parachute. [The audience laughs.]
Now (today) a helicopter is a very modernized helicopter, you know? With a machine gun. [He makes a noise like a machine gun.] [He laughs.] In the future, I don’t know what kind of parachute you can create. Maybe you can have a parachute with an automatic gun, you know? [He makes another noise.]