Mindfulness – Talk 4
March 24, 1984 Dharma Talk by Dainin Katagiri Roshi
List | Previous | Next | Series: Mindfulness
Summary
Katagiri Roshi discusses “demons-becoming-buddhas,” “buddhas-becoming-buddhas,” and “people-becoming-buddhas,” and how this relates to mindfulness of the body.
Transcript
Part 1
Listen to Part 1 of this talk on mnzencenter.org
Katagiri Roshi: … First let me read the next paragraph:
Studying in such a manner, in the time of demons-becoming-buddha we subdue demons and make buddha with demons. In the time of buddhas-becoming-buddhas we are mindful of buddhas and make buddhas with buddhas. In the time of people-becoming-buddhas, we bring harmony to people and make buddhas with people. We should study the truth that there is the approach to buddhas where we are taking advantage of.
(From Katagiri Roshi’s translation of Sanjūshichi-bon-bodai-bunpō, “Thirty-Seven Conditions Contributing to Bodhisattva Practice”, in Shobogenzo.)
1 - 02:16
Studying in such a manner, …
First of all Dogen Zenji [says] “studying in such a manner.” That is a point we studied yesterday, but briefly speaking:
A body is that which is completely beyond a sense of purity or impurity. That is [a] body; that is your body.
And through the practice of mindfulness you should observe or contemplate the body of this kind, not the body as a sense of purity or a sense of impurity. We should at any cost observe or contemplate the body beyond a sense of purity or impurity. This is the practice of mindfulness.
That’s why this mindfulness says “observing the body as not-pure” – because the whole body is completely filled with supreme purity. Nothing to compare. At that time, it is not necessary to emphasize particularly or strongly the presence of purity. So purity drops off.
For instance, when you are perfectly healthy, I don’t think you should emphasize [that] you are healthy. All organs, your body, your mind, working smoothly: at that time, no perception of health. So perfect health – beyond health or not health – is expressed by the term no-health. Not-health. Because it’s not necessary to say in particular, “I am healthy.” That is called your body, your mind is completely filled with health. No space to bring any other ideas into it.
That is called buddha; we say buddha. Buddha is completely beyond purity or impurity. That is called truth, which is omnipresent, we say. Buddha is omnipresent. So when your health is omnipresent throughout your body [and] throughout your mind, [your] idea [or] perception of health drops off. So how can you express it? No health, [or] not-health.
So that’s why here it says, “Observing the body as not-pure.” That means the body is supreme purity, so-called buddha. We have to observe [or] contemplate the body of this kind.
So body doesn’t mean your own body. If your body is buddha, beyond purity or impurity, body-being – [which] means right now, right here, be in the presence of your body – is nothing but manifestation of the Buddha. We use a big term, samyaksaṃbodhi, or bodhi. That is buddha, and buddha.
And also that body works every day, in each area of a day. [In the] morning, when you wash your face, this is also body manifesting its own function, so-called washing your face. So washing your face is what? Not washing your face; washing your face is manifestation of buddha, beyond idea of purity or impurity. That practice of washing your face is called Buddha’s practice; we say Buddha’s practice, or practice buddha. Buddha [or] practice, or practice of buddha, we say so. So washing your face is not usual action, human action, it is Buddha’s action, Buddha’s activity. Washing your face, putting your clothes on, and coming to the zendo, and having breakfast, zazen – all things – are nothing but body manifesting as not-pure. So every day, you can really manifest Buddha’s life.
That is, here it says, “studying in such a manner.” We have to study, we have to practice, we have to contemplate, we have to observe the body of this kind in our everyday life, whatever happens.
But in the usual life in this human society, we don’t take advantage of human activity like this. We don’t do it. When you wash your face, [you] just wash your face. That’s it, you know? No meaning.
Apparently [whether it’s] you washing your face or another person washing their face, almost everyone does the same thing. But the quality is completely different. And also you can manifest your life in a completely different way from others. It’s not a matter of discussion, you know? Because creating the world, creating life is always going [on] right now, right here. Every day you have to do it. How to wash your face? Wash your face just like a bird bathing in the lake? [That is] also washing your face; it’s not different from [the washing of the face] by buddhas and by Dogen. Dogen’s washing of face, Buddha’s patriarchs did it in the same way as we do. Or a bird bathing in the lake – same thing. But quite different!
Anyway, that’s why Dogen Zenji says, “Studying in such a manner.” We have to study, observe, contemplate, and research our life in this way. That is called deepening your life. Not seeing your life in the flat dimension. Seeing your life in the flat dimension, that life is very realistic, reasonable – but very thin. Not so deep.
1 - 13:24
So Dogen Zenji first says like this, “Studying in such a manner, …”, and,
… in the time of demons-becoming-buddha we subdue demons and make buddha with demons.
Well, this is a big question for you.
Because demons-becoming-buddha, that one word, means demons are not demons, demons are buddha. Completely beyond the sense of purity or impurity – anyway demons, buddha. That’s why Dogen Zenji uses one word. Demons-becoming-buddha means demon is exactly buddha, buddha is demon. Exactly one. No gap, no space between. So that’s why it’s one word.
“In the time” means everything: tape recorder becoming buddha. Tape recorder is buddha, floor is buddha, your nail is also buddha, your hair is buddha. So that is [that] the presence of your hair is “hair-being.” Hair-being is great opportunity of manifestation of buddha.
So that’s why “in the time of demons-becoming-buddha,” at that time what kind of world appears? He says, “we subdue demons and make buddha with demons.” So when you are in demons’ world, you have to be there with the demons, taking the form of demons, and then you should subdue them and become buddhas, make buddhas.
You say immediately, “Demons are something wrong, bad.” The moment when you see the demons, you handle the whole world not as a buddha. You handle demons, tape recorders, whatever – yesterday I [said] – in terms of a sense of value. That’s why it’s good or bad, cold, warm, et cetera. But we don’t practice […] let them put the microphone, tape recorder, demons, trees or birds in equality, before you judge, evaluate. Put them all in peace. And then, as best as we can, we should deal with them, anyway!
But more or less, judgement, evaluation operates. That’s why as best as we can, we try to deal with tape recorder, microphone, you, clothes, tissues, toilet paper – whatever it is – before you judge, evaluate. Anyway, let’s […] deal with all sentient beings as buddha.
But usually we don’t; we immediately handle [them] with a sense of value or evaluation, judgement. Then next moment, something happens: that is affective preferences. That makes you busy. So finally you completely forget the most important practice, so-called “let’s […] contemplate all sentient beings as buddha.” We completely forget, because [the] appearance [is] very busy. Because emotions come up, and like or dislike, and fighting, screaming, and hatred; many things come up. And also by the hatred, by the emotions, you really create a “ghost,” practically, every day. That’s why we completely forget it. Not on purpose, you know? The circumstances make you forget, because [they’re] busy.
So that’s why Shakyamuni Buddha and [ancestors] constantly have to say, “We are buddha.”
But good or bad, right or wrong, and purity or impurity are nothing but the virtuous quality. The tape recorders, demons, themselves don’t have any particular label, so-called “bad” or “good,” or “purity” or “impurity.” Originally it’s not [that way]; they don’t have any ideas.
For instance, your blood. Your blood circulates [through] your body. When the blood is with you, then blood becomes warm. If it is separate from you, blood becomes cold. What does it mean? Can you say “blood is warm”? No. Blood itself doesn’t have any sense, any ideas. [It is] a being completely beyond warm and cold, good or bad. It’s pure, supreme [purity]. That is called buddha.
And then, when the blood is with you, circulating [in] your whole body, [then] blood shows its own virtuous quality, so-called warm. Next moment, blood separates from your body, and then blood shows its own virtuous quality, so-called cold. That’s it. And also when the blood is blood stains on somebody’s clothes, […] then [it] says, “dirty.” So blood shows its own virtuous quality, so-called dirty.
You know rice, food. Food is beautiful because you eat [it]. Very pure, clean food. But food itself doesn’t have any ideas. When you have food [in] your bowl, and then handle [it] in the appropriate way, food always shows its own virtuous quality, so-called clean. Next moment, you make a mistake, and your bowl [falls] and the food scatters on your floor. At that time, people come in, and how do you see it? It’s dirty. You don’t want to eat it. So when the food separates from the bowl in the appropriate manner, and then it scatters on the floor, at that time, food shows its own virtuous quality, so-called dirty food. Though food itself is really buddha. Nothing.
You know, [when] you eat the food, […] sometimes you should [think about] the inside of your stomach. [He laughs.] It’s really dirty, because all food comes together and is digested, you know? If you see it through the six consciousnesses, you say it’s dirty, but it’s not dirty, because it supports your life. So food itself, digestion itself, doesn’t have any sense, dirty or good or bad, right or wrong, purity or impurity. Completely digestion is digestion. We have to observe, contemplate food as not-pure, as a buddha. This is our practice.
[Or for example, if] you smoke a cigarette. I used to smoke [cigarettes]. But the cigarette itself, smoke itself, doesn’t have any sense, any ideas. So I think […] by the cigarette there are some individuals who attain enlightenment. [He laughs.] There are some individuals who are really confused with the cigarette. There are some individuals who really fight with the cigarette, because it’s related very closely with his or her business, so always fighting. But there are some individuals who really attain enlightenment, and quit smoking cigarettes, keeping his or her body healthy. So where is [the moral]? The cigarette itself is really buddha, anyway.
When the cigarette belongs to a certain particular person, that cigarette shows its own virtuous quality, so-called bad. On the other hand, an old man who died, I forgot his name, who lived in Chicago for many, many years. 96 years old, but he smoked! He loved smoking and he loved drinking so much, but he lived to 96 or 97 years old. [He laughs.] So for him, what is a cigarette? The cigarette is nothing to damage his body. Pretty good; enjoying his life, he enjoyed very much his smoking. So smoking itself doesn’t have any particular ideas. That’s why it is buddha.
If you see the demons […] you have to deal with the demons just like this, alright? That’s pretty hard, because if you deal with the demons, very naturally you deal with the demons for what? You know, immediately you say, “For what?” “Katagiri says demons are buddha, so I want to deal with the demons, they’re buddhas.” Well, how can you deal with the demons as buddha practically? Let me know. [He chuckles.] It’s very complicated. You cannot deal with demons as buddha in terms of what Shakyamuni Buddha or Dogen [talk about]. Practice is not so simple. People misunderstand demons, buddhas. If you say “the bar is buddha” or “gambling is Buddha” – whatever it is, wherever you may be, all are buddhas. So if you understand very simply, you can go anyplace, you know? You can enjoy your life. But, practically… [he chuckles,] your life becomes messy.
[So] you handle the demons when you see the demons, but you always cope with the demons for the sake of your desire. In many ways, for the sake of something. Enjoying, or satisfying your desire, in a big scale or in a small scale. [You know,] just a little bit… sometimes you don’t notice. But psychologically, that desire is always working. You deal with the demons, but demons are pretty good for you: at that time you can say demons are buddha. You know? For instance, “cigarettes are buddha.” And then if you smoke a cigarette, cigarette is pretty good for you, you feel good. You enjoy smoking; at that time cigarette is not demon. You say, “Demons become buddha.” That is alright, but at that time, check your mind once again. Study and observe your mind. Is there any sense, even slightly, is there no sense of satisfying your desire? Satisfying your desire means good or bad, in many ways. In a good way, in a bad way, in a neutral way, you [are] always satisfying your desires. That’s very common. But people don’t pay attention to it. [They] just simply handle the demons according to the “teaching.” So, “The teaching says demons are buddha, so let’s use [that].” But I don’t think it’s so simple.
That’s why Dogen Zenji says, “In the time of demons becoming buddhas, you subdue demons.” You cannot handle the demons recklessly. No. You cannot handle demons according to your desires, your sense. Because if “demons are buddha” means demons are completely perfect beings beyond the idea of purity or impurity, [that means] you have to deal with the demons just like this. How? You must be very simple. Your activity must be very simple, just like a stream of water: just pass by from moment to moment. Don’t stay with it. That’s pretty hard practice.
[If] somebody hits you from [behind] without any reason: at that, time can you handle this as a buddha? Maybe… maybe not. But no guarantees. But the question is, at the moment when somebody hits you without any reason, at that time you have to practically deal with that person as a buddha… and the situation, and you. That’s pretty hard.
Yokoi Roshi, a friend of mine, I was very impressed by his life, because no matter what situation he might be [in], he always kept going in the same calm pace. He never changed. I was very impressed. We are pretty easy to stumble, confuse, in certain situations, particularly in unfavorable conditions.
So you have to handle that person who hits you with no reason: at that time you do gassho and bow, without expecting any reward.
But of course, no one says you are great, and then you just do. But still, psychologically, your mind is working. Just do gassho, [and] right after this, maybe your mind thinks, “Probably this gassho will deepen my life.” [People laugh.] Don’t you think so? I always do it. [He laughs.]
Hashimoto Roshi always scolded us, picking [on] gassho and bows, from moment to moment. There is no chance to escape, so everyone does really perfect gassho, wonderful gassho. I expected always… Intellectually I don’t understand why I have to do this, [he laughs,] because just this one. I didn’t see any benefit from this practice. If I do this, how much can I get a benefit? [He laughs.] Nothing. But he says, “It’s to become Buddha,” so I expect it, in many ways, psychologically, thinking, “This is buddha.” [He laughs.]
So immediately that thinking or that expectation is that which you do something for the sake of something, for the sake of satisfying your desire. At that time, it’s very difficult to deal with the demons as buddha. But more or less, we handle [things] like this. Demons, good or bad, right or wrong or neutral, we do always. That’s why we have to practicing subduing. Subduing means you have to deal with yourself just like a stream of water. Just gassho, that’s enough. Don’t leave any trace of psychological function – inside, nothing. Just do gassho. Can you do this? That’s pretty hard. But all we have to do [is] just like this. That is really practice.
In Japanese that is called [ikon zadansu]. [Ikon] means “mind.” [kon] means “root.” Root of the mind, root of thoughts. [Zadan] is “cut off.” The function of our mind is just like a […] very thin silver thread there, always. Just like a lotus root. Do you know the lotus root? If you cut the lotus root slightly, [in-]between the very thin, silver, transparent thread [is] there, and they take it out and the thread comes up. Your consciousness is just like that.
So it’s very difficult to just bow; exactly just bow [is] very hard. But we should do it. We should practice like this.
So that’s why that practice is really [to] subdue or profound[ly end]. This is cutting off that thread. That is simple. From moment to moment, day by day, we have to do it. Because we have a mind, this kind of mind; very sticky mind there. So in our whole life, we have to do it just like this.
1 - 38:16
And then, “… and make buddha with demons.” So when you stumble in the realm of demons, you have to spring back in the realm of demons, not anything else. You have to stumble and you have to spring back again in there, not in [any] other.
So, that is called buddha, we say buddha. “Demons are buddha.” If you have open eyes to see this buddha, that is the time demons become buddha.
You know bee hives. If you see a bee hive, more or less most people feel fear, because bees sting you. But the bee hive itself is very quiet. If you leave it quietly, it is quiet. Because bee hive is buddha.
The same applies to a man and woman. Woman always emphasizes the rights of the woman, you know. But man always emphasize man’s pattern of thinking, and woman always emphasize woman’s pattern of thinking, and always fighting each other. In a sense this is alright, but we should know who becomes buddha. […] Borrowing the man’s body or mind and then woman should attain enlightenment or buddha? No way, you cannot do it. Woman becomes buddha by woman. You cannot borrow the man’s body and mind.
That is why men and women practice hard. We are already buddha, that is why we can do it. We can do it. But we don’t see it. We always see the man [or] woman in terms of a sense of value, evaluation – in terms of a certain ism, or ideas. That is why it is very difficult to know how you become buddha, how you can live in peace and harmony.
To live in peace and harmony means you should become buddha …
Part 2
Listen to Part 2 of this talk on mnzencenter.org
… If you stumble in the realm of woman, you have to be a woman and spring back in the realm of woman, and then you become buddha.
But we don’t do it. If we stumble over in the realm of woman, we try to get something, and expect a certain paradise in the heavens, and try to spring back again over there. That is [like] borrowing the man’s body and mind, job, status, et cetera, and then try to stand up. That is always fighting […] or ism.
But anyway, even [if] you don’t understand the meaning [of] “[in the time of] demons-becoming-buddha we subdue demons and make buddha with demons,” this is really true. So in your whole life, what does it mean? You have to contemplate, you have to observe the significance of Dogen’s statement in your whole life.
2 - 01:22
Next he says,
In the time of buddhas-becoming-buddhas we are mindful of buddhas and make buddhas with buddhas.
This [means] your body is already buddha, your mind is buddha, and every aspect of your human life, so-called daily routine, manifested by your body and mind, are nothing but [buddha]. If so, to practice buddha is a very simple practice. A very simple practice. Just like a stream of water: accept, and pass by. Face, meet something, and pass by.
It doesn’t mean senselessness. Human sense, [the] sense of humanity works, very naturally. That’s why there is a practice so-called “to subdue” or cut off strings. Because we have human feeling, […] [human] sense, or emotion and consciousness; many things work. If you don’t have human sense, human emotions, it’s very easy to deal with the tape recorder as a buddha. You know? Just like a bird. It’s very simple. But we don’t. We are not just like a bird [or tree]. We have very complicated emotions and consciousness, and through this consciousness and emotions then we understand very deep human life.
So “in the time of buddhas-becoming-buddha we are mindful of buddhas and make [buddha with buddha]” means your practice is your daily life. The practice of mindfulness is nothing but achieving continuation of simplicity. Buddhas: meet tape recorder, gassho, [and] pass by. That’s [to] continue from day to day. In everyday busy life, return to the center. Be still. Observe the total picture of the human world. Right in the middle of noisiness, return to the center. A thousand myriad times, we have to repeat again and again.
That is called bodhi mind; I mention it very often. Bodhi mind, the way-seeking mind. At that time, [if even for a moment] you can return to the center, so-called quiescence, shamatha, you can be mindful of buddhas and make buddhas with the buddhas, because your body and mind is buddha.
2 - 05:22
So next, he says:
In the time of people-becoming-buddhas, we bring harmony to people and make buddhas with people.
We are buddha. Okay? We are buddha. All human beings are buddha. All sentient beings are buddha. If so – why is it we have to practice?
If we are buddha, we have to take responsibility for making [it] alive in our daily life.
Buddha is not metaphysical ideas or not philosophical, religious ideas. Buddhas are something alive – vividly, like a leaping fish, [in] every moment, in every aspect of your life. Washing your face, going to work, walking on the street, gassho, bow, whatever – we call buddha.
If so, “we bring harmony to people,” because all we have to do is […] just to see the winter and pass by. Just see the severe winter in Minneapolis and don’t judge, evaluate. [He chuckles.]
But first we judge, evaluate, the weather. And then, “I don’t like,” or “I like.” People always ask me, do you like Minnesota weather? [He laughs.] I say, “Yes.” But I don’t think “yes.” [Laughter.] Because I want to say “no,” but if I say “no,” people continue to ask me, “Why do you live here?” So I don’t want to discuss about it. [He laughs, and the audience laughs.] That’s why, “I like it.” But actually I don’t like it.
So if I don’t like it, why do I live here? Because here is a Zen Center. But I am still free, so even though Zen Center is here, I can go any place. But I don’t want [to]. So as long as I am here, I should say I like it. [He laughs.] I say, “I like it!” … But I don’t like it. [Laughter.]
So the reason why I am here is: nothing. Just, I am here. [He chuckles.]
So, my presence in Minneapolis is completely buddha – pure, very pure. And then if you ask me why, […] then I show the virtuous quality of Katagiri’s presence in Minneapolis. That’s it.
The trees, birds, and sparrows [have a] very simple life. When the severe winter comes, they just face/see/meet severe winter, and live. When they have to die in the severe winter, then they just die. We also should do it like that. But we are not the same as a bird. We have consciousness, emotions, feelings, and through this we have to live just like the trees, birds.
So that is simplicity in life. After we pass through the filter again and again, then we can see simplicity. That simplicity is really polished, refined, taking […] many, many years. It is completely different from the simplicity in life which birds, trees possess. Completely different. They live in a simple way. We live in a simple way, but [the] simplicity is different. Thanks to our emotions [and] consciousness, we can [make] profound and refine […] simplicity in life. That is called buddha.
So that’s why the Dogen Zen says, “In the time of people-becoming-buddhas, we bring harmony to people.” This is our practice. Constantly we bring harmony and peace to people, to us. Everyday. [Nothing-special] practice…
Part 3
Listen to Part 3 of this talk on mnzencenter.org
… Even [if] you can talk with your parents who died 20 years ago, you can talk by [unintelligible] with the computers, I’m not [jealous]. That’s kind of [a delusion]. [He laughs.]
In San Francisco, one of the students is very interested in programming computers. He is making a particular program called “Sensei.” [He laughs.] Sensei, do you know that term? That is “teacher.” He is making a program called Sensei. It means to give lots of input of the experience of zazen [he laughs] and finding solutions to human problems in terms of Zen teaching. Do you understand? Is that alright? [Some laughter.] He is making a program. That is wonderful, isn’t it? So I said, “That’s wonderful; please give me one if you make it.” [He laughs.] He is making it now. It is interesting.
So at that time, it’s not necessary to do zazen, anyway. The computer tells you the solutions of human problems… [Some laughter.]
But human beings are really something alive. So whatever kind of material you use, you cannot understand human beings who are alive perfectly. Just like your breath, and your heart.
So the important practice is for us to bring harmony day by day to your mind, to your body, and live with the people. That is “make buddha with people.” Make buddha, anyway. It means, live in peace.
Using what? Not using your body and mind, using the Buddha. If you use your body, at that time that body is already something evaluated by your sense. So that body is already [putting] a certain label on it, “dirty” or “pure.” But you have to use human body as a buddha. That means your body is always fresh, every day fresh. Every day your body, your mind has great opportunity to grow, to develop. Whatever kind of physical or mental type you have, basically your body and mind are always fresh, like a white canvas. You can put any kind of color on it.
That’s why in Bendowa, Dogen Zenji [says], “Even though dharma is amply present in you, it is not manifested if you don’t practice it.” So your body and mind are exactly buddha – but we have to use it. Using, taking the form of body and mind as a buddha. And you have to bring harmony. Very naturally you can bring the harmony to your life and make a buddha. If you make a buddha, you can live your life in peace and harmony with the people, together, very naturally.
3 - 05:50
We should study the truth that there is the approach to buddhas where we are taking advantage of.
We should contemplate and study the truth. There is a truth, there is a principle, there is a reason. Okay? We should study the principle or the truth or reason. Nobody can change it. That principle is the approach to buddha, the pathway to buddha, to Buddha’s world, to peaceful life, to liberated life, whatever you say.
There is a pathway to liberated life, or freedom, liberation, buddha – whatever you say. How? In the place where you are using, where you are taking advantage of. If you use your body in a small scale – small scale means in terms of whether you satisfy your desire or not, always checking – if you use your body in terms of this small scale, your body becomes very small. But if you use your body in a big scale – big scale means without having any particular ideas on your body and mind, so called purity or impurity, good or bad, right or wrong – your body becomes big. Your life becomes big. That is the place where you are using, you are taking advantage of.
When I do gassho and bow to you – whatever you do, whatever you think [of] me, anyway do gassho and respect you – or if next moment I [am angry] at you and hit you, quite a different world appears. I exist in the same situation, but if I do gassho, that world is quite different from the world [where] I [hit] you. Quite different. But apparently I am the same person and you are same person, and the situation, circumstances are the same. But how I can use those circumstances, how I can use myself and others: that is a pathway, a pathway to go through. You can see the very clear pathway to go through, toward buddha, toward peace and harmony.
That is nothing but practice. That is using, taking advantage of yourself and your object, and your partners: microphone, whatever it is. It really depends on your practice, from day to day. That’s all we have to do.
That’s why Dogen Zenji says the most difficult practice is to bring harmony and peace to our human body and mind. It is [the] most difficult practice. More than [having] mysterious powers, you know, by particular practice. Anyone can have mysterious powers by particular practice! But it is very difficult to bring harmony and peace to your mind, to your body, and live in peace. Making buddhas everyday, and helping others – it’s very difficult.
But that is most important. That is called the practice of mindfulness through your body.
That’s why Dogen Zenji [talks about] in this section the meaning of observing the body as not-pure. That is, anyway, through your body. “Let’s observe your body” means your body and your object, or the human world, and various aspects of the life manifested by your body and mind. [What’s that?] All the things you can see are something beyond the idea of purity or impurity. That is the point we have to observe, contemplate, as the practice of mindfulness.
3 - 12:18
So [a] quite different meaning from very traditional [meaning]. According to the traditional understanding of observing the body as impure or not pure, [that] means your body is not pure. So, if you believe your body is pure, very naturally you create arrogance. “Pure” means “I am rich,” “my mind is great,” or “my zazen is great.” If you do something good, immediately you think so. That is arrogance. [It] always comes up in every area of your life, constantly.
Arrogance is many kinds. Seven [kinds of] arrogance – I don’t want to explain this one, but seven kinds of arrogance always appear in your everyday life. We don’t see it. But if you study carefully, very naturally we always have seven kinds of arrogance.
So in order to let you be free from that arrogance, Buddha teaches us, “Let’s see your body [as] not pure.” [That] means not arrogant, don’t create arrogance. For this, at any cost, you should see your body as impure.
Even [in] Christianity. I told you, I saw the famous picture [of] a Catholic monk standing up and holding a human skeleton. Do you know that picture? A beautiful picture. And watching the skeleton; that monk wears a monk’s robe and hat, and just stands and watches the skeleton. Very impressive, very quietness there, very wonderful. I saw it in Omaha.
OK, do you have a question?
3 - 15:05
Question: What do you mean by the word ‘demon’?
Katagiri Roshi: Huh?
Same person: How can you see the word ‘demon’ outside of making a judgement on it?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, generally speaking, ‘demons’ are physical or psychological states which are against the satisfaction of your desires. Against your will, et cetera; against your life. Always something against.
Same person: So it seems like in a sense, it’s already a negative term. […]
Katagiri Roshi: Negative term.
Same person: Right. So […] remember how we were talking about, for example, rice? You know, it’s just rice, and then if you spill it on the floor then it’s dirty. How can you see a demon just as a demon?
Katagiri Roshi: If you use a ‘demon’, already you understand the demons in terms of a sense of value or evaluation, don’t you?
Same person: Right, that’s…
Katagiri Roshi: That’s [why]. But […] in terms of a sense of evaluation and value, human value, you understand demon as something negative. But that is already kind of something that appears on the surface of a demon’s life. But [a] demon itself is completely nothing. Only when you take [a] demon as something wrong, [a] demon appears as something wrong.
Same person: Well, it seems like the term demon itself implies that already.
Katagiri Roshi: Sure! That’s why we have to understand the demons more deeply, you know? Don’t be cheated by the term. Do you understand what I mean?
We already get use of the meaning of the term ‘demons.’ Already we have a preconception: demons is something wrong. But that is already [an] idea of demons coming from your sense, evaluations. But we have to understand demons in the equal level of buddha. White canvas. That’s why demons and devils always appear in Buddhist scriptures.
3 - 18:01
Question: When you were talking about being hit from behind: is that the purpose of that stick?
Katagiri Roshi: General, you know, [point.]
Same person: But is the point to make you mad?
Katagiri Roshi: I am talking about a general thing, okay? Not the stick.
Same person: What’s the stick for?
Katagiri Roshi: Well, it depends on you. [Some laughter.] But the stick we use is, anyway, encouraging you in many ways.
Same person: It’s supposed to encourage you?
Katagiri Roshi: Yes. [Some laughter, and Katagiri laughs.] Yes. I hope so. [Laughter.] I pray that way. Okay? Whatever you accept, whatever you feel, I pray like this […]
3 - 19:10
Katagiri Roshi: What do you think of ‘demons’, [as] she mentioned? Do you have something to say?
Question: How would you explain somebody like Hitler? I mean, how can you not make a value judgement?
Katagiri Roshi: Do you think he is a demon?
Same person: I think you could [say that].
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, maybe so. But that is [that] you already see the Hitlers in terms of human evaluation. But Hitler himself is human. That human temporarily called Hitler appears under certain circumstances, and then Hitler did something [unusual]. That’s it. But if I were the Hitler, maybe I could do the same things. That is a possibility we have. Because we are […] white canvas. We are white canvas. So any kind of ink, drop on the canvas and draw a picture. [We have] countless possibilities. Do you understand that?
Person from a previous question: It seems like, what I’m saying is that, ok maybe if you take somebody like Hitler and say, just like you say about the rice, that you don’t necessarily have to make a judgment on him until he makes a mess, or until he does something bad. Right? But it seems like the word demon is sort of like the word mess or dirty. Do you know what I mean? You can call Hitler a demon after he does something, like spills himself on the floor or something. Do you know what I mean?
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, [I think so].
Person: And it seems like, I can’t see demon, demon seems like it’s already a word like dirty.
Katagiri Roshi: I don’t think so. That is already you… [Well,] yes, in a sense it’s right. But in a sense it’s not right, because demons help human beings to awaken a wonderful world, how wonderful [the] world is. Thanks to the demons we attain enlightenment, you know? If everyone is a wonderful enlightened person, even [if] I attain enlightenment, nobody pays attention, you know? Do you understand? [If] everyone attains enlightenment here, and then I practice and attain enlightenment, nobody pays attention to me.
Person: So what? That’s good.
Katagiri Roshi: Yeah, that’s good! [Laughter.] That’s good. You know? [He laughs.] That’s great.
So even the demons, if the demons [seem to be] white canvas, it’s not a particular thing. But when you deal with something in a particular way, it becomes a particular thing. It depends on you.
That’s why, understanding that case of Hitlers. People criticize Hitler himself, but we should understand Hitler in terms of not human evaluation, but first of all put the Hitler as a human in the same and one nature we live as a human. I, Hitler – same. Okay? In the exactly same [and one nature]. And then let’s deal with this guy, and us. Okay? That is the first practice for us.
And then, he did something. [That] he did something is what happens around him. But human beings are the same: we, Katagiri and Hitler, are the same thing. But different things are [that] Hitler’s a German, [and] I, Katagiri, am Japanese. And Hitler lived in Europe during the Second World War, and the particular circumstances. And he had some ideas, and people around him gave lots of ideas, […] and then from those ideas, “Let’s kill human beings.” That’s it.
Person: [Sounds like an objection.]
Katagiri Roshi: Katagiri didn’t live there. But if I lived there, the same things could happen. If so, basically, Hitler and I are not different. But Hitler did something wrong. That is not Hitler’s problem, that is a human problem. Okay? Do you understand that one?
Person: No.
Katagiri Roshi: That is most important. People always judge the Hitler as an individual person, separated from humans, each of us. Do you understand that one? That is very dangerous. That’s why constantly we create problems. We always criticize Hitler separate from, [say,] him. So that’s why we see Hitler as something particular. That is, I always say, we always see something in terms of human evaluation first. At that time, very naturally, next criticism comes up, next affective preferences come up, like or dislike. And then, arguing. Do you understand? That is the human world, we always do [this]. But we have to do something before we do it like that. That is buddha. Anyway, let’s come back to the base. Put all sentient beings, Hitlers and demons and Katagiris, put all things in the same and one level, so-called buddha. That is what? Plainly speaking, that’s human. Just a human, just a being. And [that] being is what? Completely white canvas. And each particular being is put in a certain circumstance, and then that being shows a certain virtuous quality of his own, so-called warm or cold, you know? Do you understand that?
Person: Yes. So that like, for example, even when you see the rice on the floor, even though you call it dirty, you can still see the value in the dirty [rice].
Katagiri Roshi: Sure. That’s true.
Person: I get it.
Katagiri Roshi: So if you see the food on the floor, so-called dirty, and then immediately you handle the food in terms of dirtiness, that’s really rough behavior. But we always have to see everything coming back to the same and one level. That’s the point we always forget, ignore. That’s why buddhas and [ancestors] constantly tell us like this.
3 - 27:35
Question: Roshi, is the moment of demons, product of discriminating mind, just always judging, and so a demon is really mind working, just mind always working and discriminating, [working naturally in a] discriminating way, and then coming back to a total consciousness, and then [the] demon can disappear.
Katagiri Roshi: No, not ‘disappear’…
Same person: Or just be allowed to be part of the mind.
Katagiri Roshi: Well, the demons just be present with you as a being. That’s it. Not appear or not disappear. No. Just let it be present with you as a being. That’s all.
Just like wind and tree. Wind itself doesn’t have any ideas. But when the wind destroys the trees, we say bad. You don’t like a tornado. But the tornado itself is just a being. You cannot destroy, you cannot judge… whatever you criticize you give to the tornado, the tornado smiles. [He laughs.] Anytime, when the time is right, conditions arranged, the tornado will visit you.
So we always handle in terms of evaluation, judgment. But it’s very natural. That’s why when you see the demon, “let’s subdue demons” means bringing harmony to your body, and deal with the demons. Okay? Instead of becoming crazy. [He laughs.]
That’s pretty hard practice! It’s very simple. For instance, right in the middle of fighting, how can you subdue? [He laughs.] Can you? Can you do it? If you can, you are buddha.
Well, “I cannot do it” – but I have to do it. I have to do it. That’s important. There is no guarantee, “I can do it.” But we have to do it. That is [our] practice. If you can do it easily, I don’t think it’s necessary to do it with a particular effort, don’t you think so? [He chuckles.]
That’s why using the demons, and we have to subdue demons and make a buddha. So at that time, demons give you lots of suggestions what the human world is.
So in the human world, if there are many different kinds of persons here, and then I become something particular, you know, and then people say, “You are great.” But if everything is the same, it’s not a particular thing.
Question: Are you saying that the existence of something, say for example a Hitler, is inevitable when given certain conditions?
Katagiri Roshi: “Inevitable”? I’m not clear.
Same person: “Necessary to occur”?
Katagiri Roshi: Not necessary to occur, but it’s possible to occur. For everyone, such things occur. They might occur for everyone, not only the particular person. Do you understand what I mean?